tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post140379194323172647..comments2024-03-15T05:45:01.402-05:00Comments on Grits for Breakfast: Will Eldorado case expose overwhelmed Texas CPS system?Gritsforbreakfasthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-30577437137994653722008-05-19T15:35:00.000-05:002008-05-19T15:35:00.000-05:00"It would probably be better if Texas CPS sued fir..."It would probably be better if Texas CPS sued first and settled with an agreement that required the teenagers to be educated in the local school system."<BR/><BR/>Parents have the right to home school their children. California recently tried to require public school and phase out home schooling and they got blasted. The Amish were also targeted for their educational practices with their children a few years back. They only educate them up to an eighth grade level? That went all the way to the supreme court and the Amish won.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-10362435483000391682008-04-28T21:19:00.000-05:002008-04-28T21:19:00.000-05:00CPS another arm of the Evil Beastly Sytstem.This s...CPS another arm of the Evil Beastly Sytstem.<BR/>This system will fall very soon, not before it has taken its toll on many families.<BR/>The lesson learn will not be forgotten, we will never allow this<BR/>type atrocity to take place in the soon coming Kingdom.<BR/><BR/>OOkiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17652057626416773504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-60583417345312991502008-04-23T00:40:00.000-05:002008-04-23T00:40:00.000-05:00jsand said... 'CPS can't win, can they? If they ha...jsand said... <BR/>'CPS can't win, can they? If they had only removed the one child, then some of these other situations came to light, or another child gave birth, they would be criticised for not having anticipated the situation and removed all the children. So - they remove them all and are considered wrong for that.<BR/><BR/>Before casting stones over how this was handled - tell us how you would have done it. Who gets left with individuals who believe any female past puberty is fair game? Then how do you answer that you "protected" those girls?'<BR/><BR/>4/11/2008 11:24:00 AM<BR/><BR/>First of all I would totally change the way all children's protective service agencies are run and the laws under which they operate. The Constitutional rule of law needs to be restored here, it isn't just a matter of this one cult being done violence by this bureaucracy.<BR/><BR/>I would make it so that if there is a suspected case of parental child abuse, neglect or other crime involving a child, you get a warrant and pick up the said child only long enough to determine if there is more evidence of wrongdoing that is worth pursuing in a trial. If said evidence is there, the next person that would get picked up is the suspected perpetrator(s) of the crime; if he is a parent with legal custody of that child, upon being charged, the child would be sent to go live temporarily with the responsible next-of-kin party, which could be the other parent or other relatives if there is no other parent available, or into foster care if no responsible next-of-kin exists. None of these actions would impair legal parental custody per se, as yet, because no trial has yet occurred. <BR/><BR/>The next thing I would do is try the perp in a court of law before a jury, in which all due process would occur including confrontation with witnesses as required. The Constitution's Sixth Amendment REQUIRES that the accused have the right to be confronted with the witnesses against him, so none of this testifying behind shields or on video or that kind of nonsense. It's a RIGHT. Non-negotiable.<BR/><BR/>Now, if the perp(s) is convicted of a crime against the minor child, and has legal custody, I presume virtually all existing laws revoke custody upon conviction of that sort of a crime. If he is a member of the household without legal custody (which can include a compound), or otherwise resides close to the child, upon conviction he should lose the right to be within 1000 feet of THAT child. As for bail requirements and other pre-trial concerns, a judge should have the power to decide whether or not to set bail but also have the power to issue a restraining order forbidding the perp to come within a certain distance of the victim child. This would be considered replaced with the legal result of the trial.<BR/><BR/>Conviction and sentencing should take place within the realm of existing law, but I would add that if one is convicted of a crime against a child involving loss of custody, the period of loss of custody should be until the child is no longer a minor, if it's a felony, or if it is a misdemeanor sexual assault or other crime of that nature.<BR/><BR/>If the suspect is acquitted, the child should be returned to his or her legal adult custodians as existed before charges were filed, if he was removed from them.<BR/><BR/>Moreover all custody hearings apart from criminal procedure should be held in a court of law before a jury of one's peers unless the parents waive this right and opt for a judge, as in civil and criminal cases. A family court judge should be appointed or elected in the same manner as any criminal or civil trial judge is (in my opinion, ALL judges for ALL manner of hearings should be either elected by the people or appointed by the executive under confirmation from the legislative branch. This is often not the case in many agency-run court systems, where the judge presiding is appointed by the agency doing the prosecution of alleged violations.) It should be made unconstitutional to change the permanent or long-term custody of a child without the hearing of an independent judiciary.<BR/><BR/>CPS did wrong because it violated Constitutional procedures and due process of law. It HAS to be applied in EVERY case. If it comes to light that another child has been abused or coerced into illegal activity, you repeat the same process for that charge, and you be consistent. But to me, "anticipating the situation" is not and never has been a valid justification for state action against citizens under Constitutional law. That's mind-reading, like "anticipating" that a fellow wandering by a bank is going to rob it. <BR/><BR/>If we let police "anticipate" crimes, we might stop some, but every law abiding citizen trying to figure out when the bank is open or trying to find the ATM would get arrested too. And then you have a police state that's out of control. I might "anticipate" that my next door neighbor's child care business is harming the children in its care. Maybe I'm just annoyed by nerf footballs sailing over the fence. Am I justified in turning them in? Should DCF investigate them for allowing children to throw objects? I'm just anticipating that if today it's nerf balls, tomorrow it might be steak knives. Hey, it could happen.Turtle of Xanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16916118398172329957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-74577666145641535552008-04-22T23:36:00.000-05:002008-04-22T23:36:00.000-05:00Jade said... 'This "secretive" sect is no secret. ...Jade said... <BR/>'This "secretive" sect is no secret. We are all aware of their existence. They have been exposed in the past on television. Oprah winfrey had Lisa ling enter the areas and spoke with a former member that fled.The people in the community were nothing but freaky. Of course it is not correct to remove children from their parents that protect and love them, but this is not the case here.In the name of love unhappy,miserable women repeat what they know is wrong. Where has the laws been all these years? The Contitution has let these kids down. This has been long overlooked and many should be prosecuted. Very very sad..but old and this is not about religion. Polygamy,Incest..what's next?'<BR/><BR/>4/17/2008 09:45:00 AM<BR/><BR/>How about slavery and tyranny? Under your government?<BR/><BR/>What do you mean, the Constitution let the kids down? Are the issues of polygamy and mind control more important than the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights? Do we now use the end of breaking up little religious tyrannies to justify the means of a big government tyranny to do it with?<BR/><BR/>Have you ever once asked yourself, what if the government decides YOUR religion is to be targeted because of some sort of abuse or criminal behavior on the part of a few of its believers? The Constitution did not let those kids down. The incompetent government lets people down and they idiotically take it out on the Constitution when it's arbitrary bureaucrats that are to blame, or criminals. <BR/><BR/>Don't forget there were FLDS members that were making money with some lucrative defense contracts that they were using to employ other members of FLDS in conditions of slavery. Where was the government then? They didn't seem very concerned about the children when it suited the low-bidding Feds to get weapons systems out of them. (Anyone remember I.G. Farben? And Schindler's List?) But now that that's over with, Texas CPS is all over them with this total hypocrisy that some great criminal enterprise is going on because some old man in the cult boinked a 14 year old girl, or so it is alleged by this so far still undiscovered minor. What happened to the SLAVERY issue? They don't want to touch that one because it implicates the Department of Defense!!! They're just hoping to eliminate this group before they turn this around on the United States Government's complicity!!<BR/><BR/>Do I believe a crime may have been committed at that ranch? Yeah, probably. Does that mean I would support a fishing expedition in force that violates five amendments of the Constitution and two core clauses of the same? Is it worth it to shred the document that enshrines the rights we all supposedly enjoy? Or do you think like an Esau and prefer to sell it for pottage, whenever a little hunger for your version of justice goes unsatisfied?Turtle of Xanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16916118398172329957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-21199553803943795602008-04-22T23:12:00.000-05:002008-04-22T23:12:00.000-05:00anonymous,It goes to show you you can't get good f...anonymous,<BR/><BR/>It goes to show you you can't get good fruit from a bad tree, nor good water from a poisoned well. They have already proceeded from a basis in law that from ground up is unconstitutional. Is it any wonder that incompetence and arbitrary procedures (or the lack thereof) are the end results?Turtle of Xanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16916118398172329957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-68873211946237384942008-04-22T20:47:00.000-05:002008-04-22T20:47:00.000-05:00What I find amazing is that CPS can take so many c...What I find amazing is that CPS can take so many children on such megar evidence, yet when they have picture proof of a child being neglected, abused, and maltreated, they are very slow to act if at all, claim they only have 5 mins to give a child,turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to a child truely in need, tell the reporter that they are causing more trauma to the child than the abusive parent, go so far as to attempt to alienate the child from the reporter, and yet they have time and resources and all of a sudden care about 416 children on the basis of one phone call.<BR/><BR/>Can someone tell me how CPS can ignore the documented abuse, neglect, and child endangerment of hundreds of individual Texas children daily and yet be so quick to act on an anonamous phone call and confiscate so many children at one time. <BR/>When you have picture proof of a child being injured, definite signs of abuse, neglect, many reported incidents of emotional abuse, physical and medical neglect, and they say it is no good because you are the "grandparent" the non custodail parent, etc... that to be valid the report has to come from a stranger, yet when an outsider does report it, they still turn a blind eye. <BR/><BR/>I would like to know why these children deserve more "protection" than my grandson or the countless other children in Texas who definitely need protection, yet the caseworkers turn blind eyes and deaf ears to cries of help for these children whom some have paid the ultimate price "thier lives". What makes these obivously healthy, happy children so much more important than all the children CPS refuses to help????Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-75857723620544126582008-04-20T14:51:00.001-05:002008-04-20T14:51:00.001-05:00Tuesday, April 15, 2008Raid on polygamist group in...Tuesday, April 15, 2008<BR/>Raid on polygamist group in Texas <BR/>Two stories about the heart-rending and outrageous attack on the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints at the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Texas, by agents of the Texas Children's Protective Services and (what I heard from the Michael Savage radio program were) Texas Rangers (state police.) Over 400 children were forcibly removed from their mothers and put into state custody pending their adoption out to other families -- on the basis of a so far unsubstantiated allegation that one male leader of this church sexually abused one young teenage girl.<BR/><BR/>http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_8927977<BR/>http://www.star-telegram.com/189/story/582608.html<BR/><BR/>There has clearly not been an attack on the First Amendment and half of the Bill of Rights to match this since Waco, and in terms of everything done to this group of women and children -- women who by the way were never charged with a crime; all of this is pursuant to what ONE anonymous tipster alleged happened with ONE man and ONE teenage girl -- a mass atrocity of this scope, short of bloodshed, has not been perpetrated on any group, religious or otherwise, since the 19th century when it was used as a means of genocide against the American Indians. Not even Mafia families have ever been this grossly and unconstitutionally violated.<BR/><BR/>Texas state agents kidnaped this group's children, based on a LIE about what someone ELSE did to someone ELSE's child, and scattered them to the four winds. I can promise that if in the future I find any of these Texas CPS agents miraculously surviving the Tribulations in whatever land God deigns to give me in the Millenium, they will have to beg long and hard to give me a reason not to line them up against a wall and have them shot, while I scatter THEIR families to the four winds and make their houses dunghills.<BR/><BR/>I pray to God that this injustice, this perversion, this obscene rape of the Constitution of the United States, is undone and reversed, and the perpetrators are brought to justice. Michael Savage has it right when he says these Nazis should be arrested and thrown in prison. I would have them executed were it in my power.<BR/><BR/>Posted by Turtle of Xanth at 10:25 PMTurtle of Xanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16916118398172329957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-49043069101119318042008-04-20T14:51:00.000-05:002008-04-20T14:51:00.000-05:00Thursday, April 17, 2008What I said to the jackboo...Thursday, April 17, 2008<BR/>What I said to the jackbooted thugs of Texas CPS. <BR/>This is a consolidation of my four messages (to get around their 2000 character limit) to Texas Children's Protective Services. Not a word was left out of the content of my messages.<BR/><BR/>To: Office of Consumer Affairs<BR/><BR/>Subject: Jackbooted thuggery and fascist oppression<BR/><BR/>Message:<BR/><BR/>1. If you people of CPS had any decency whatsoever, you would return those children to their mothers immediately with an apology and a slate of numerous resignations for your role in the evil you have perpetrated against my fellow citizens in your state. You should be ashamed of yourselves over what you have done to those 416 children and their parents, the members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. As a Christian, one not of that denomination, I am appalled.<BR/><BR/>2. The last time I checked there was still a United States Constitution that is the supreme law of the land even in Texas. You violated the First Amendment right to freedom of worship by going after this religious group AS A GROUP. You violated the Fourth Amendment right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure -- how it is reasonable to seize kids from mothers over what is accused between one child and one man is beyond me utterly, and the so-called probable cause is ONE anonymous call to 911??? You besmirch and insult the memory of those who died on Sept. 11, 2001 by that trivialization and abuse of that number. And so you ARE an insult to rescue and protection services everywhere.<BR/><BR/>3. You violated the Fifth Amendment by depriving those children of their parents without due process of law which by the way IS determined by Amendment Six, which you also violated by taking persons WITHOUT a trial, AND by taking the word of one witness who they have not been given the opportunity to confront at a trial. You violated the Eighth Amendment by depriving those mothers of their children for nothing more than membership in a group you don't like, which is cruel and unusual punishment of both those children and their parents. Proud of yourselves?<BR/><BR/>4. This act by CPS tells me that you have gone way beyond redemption. I doubt you will change your minds because of how seared your consciences must be to have carried out this felonious, treasonous crime against Americans and against Texans. Nevertheless I certainly think it is right that you should be told to your face what you did is WRONG in every sense of that word. When you face your Judge in the afterlife, you will be made to account for every one of these mothers and children. I believe that to be a fact. I am praying not for your redemption, but for your demise in this world at the hands of the American Civil Liberties Union or whoever else wants to sue you for every farthing you own, and by the way -- FIRST AMENDMENT CIVIL RIGHTS LIABILITY is UNLIMITED UNDER FEDERAL LAW!!!Turtle of Xanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16916118398172329957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-2296162034015769132008-04-20T14:48:00.000-05:002008-04-20T14:48:00.000-05:00"The distinction that these kids are not poorly ca..."The distinction that these kids are not poorly cared for in general lies in sharp contrast to many of the cases CPS sees. For the most part polygamist children in Eldorado are loved by their parents, not abused. The alleged abuse stems from a reinterpretation (the law was changed in 2005) of marriage laws in Texas specifically targeting this religious sect.(As an aside, it strikes me as bizarre that in an age where the idea of changing the definition of marriage to include gay people generates such strident opposition, changing the marriage definition to target a specific religious sect seems to be entirely non-controversial. Irony, thy name is Eldorado.)There's an arrogance in the state's decision to impose a group punishment for alleged acts by an individual against a victim who may not even exist." Grits for Breakfast, http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2008/04/will-eldorado-case-expose-overwhelmed.html.<BR/><BR/>So what you're telling me is the State of Texas passed a bill of attainder against the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints? We can add that to the list. Also, according to Fox Radio last night, the younger children who were initially ALLOWED to remain with their mothers are now to be separated from them and removed to "specialized housing." Tack on habeas corpus violations, too.<BR/><BR/>There is no part of the United States Constitution that is sacred to a child welfare fanatic.Turtle of Xanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16916118398172329957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-41881114181275968882008-04-18T01:37:00.000-05:002008-04-18T01:37:00.000-05:00I do not agree with having multiple wives but sepe...I do not agree with having multiple wives but seperating the mothers from children?<BR/>CPS has gone to far and are acting on what they think is going on. Most of those kids cannot answer these adult questions. Take them off the compund fine. But take their mothers with them. It is alleged that the males are abusing the teens SO WHY SEPERATE THESE KIDS FROM THE MOM'S?<BR/><BR/>I want to know when the Fed's(Federal Goverment) is going to step in and say enough is enough.<BR/>Sometimes Texas goes to far.<BR/>I love the people and landscape of the Lone Star State but some laws are just plain crazy.<BR/><BR/>Just today I saw on the new at the court hearing there was a circus. Lawyers upon Lawyers filled the court room and it was just plain messy.<BR/><BR/>When will we learn.<BR/>To seperate young children from their moms.<BR/><BR/>Sick.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-6106493134111892632008-04-17T14:20:00.000-05:002008-04-17T14:20:00.000-05:00Michael needs a refresher course in law. The US S...Michael needs a refresher course in law. The US Supreme court has ruled that children like adults have a right to be secure in their home without undue interference into their lives. Apparently he seems unaware that Texas has one of the worst CPS systems in the country (right down there with Missouri) from what I can tell. SWs lying on a regular basis seems to be a recurring problem. <BR/><BR/>I'm certain that the FLDS is using high handed persuasion methods (just like CPS uses on their child witnesses) to get those young women to go to bed with those old men. However, I'll bet it is rare that they use force - those girls do it because they know they'll receive increased community benefits from it. Just like other teens think they'll receive special benefits if they have a baby. It's a form of persuasion not coercion. <BR/><BR/>Now I'm certain that some FLDS leaders do use coercion on recalcitrant members for all sorts of things. However, it usually seems to be done outside the home (often out of state). Even if the the YFZ ones did it they didn't do it in front of the other members in their homes (the Temple could have been used for it).<BR/><BR/>Texas can't get them for bigamy, they didn't get legal marriages. They may be able to make them men provide support, but then they have to take into consideration their other children who would reduce the amount to poverty limits.<BR/><BR/>It would probably be better if Texas CPS sued first and settled with an agreement that required the teenagers to be educated in the local school system. You're not going to be able to save the girls who already have kids, all you really can do is try to ensure they aren't used as slaves. Just because these people try to indoctrinate their kids with ideas you find disagreeable doesn't mean they can't teach it to them. Indoctrination isn't abuse. These kids are better off with their parents in their preteens than they are with multiple foster parents.<BR/><BR/>It appears CPS in this case decided to remove all of them without any real evidence of in-home abuse. Given the vast number of cases where Texas CPS has been accused of lying, withholding evidence, producing fictional reports, I think maybe the courts there need to start handing out contempt fines on CPS for taking kids without real evidence of an emergency. If the Texas courts don't, I'll bet the FLDSers will sue (see Beltran v Santa Clara 2008 US 9th Ct App enblanc).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-49247698226230918572008-04-17T09:45:00.000-05:002008-04-17T09:45:00.000-05:00This "secretive" sect is no secret. We are all awa...This "secretive" sect is no secret. We are all aware of their existence. They have been exposed in the past on television. Oprah winfrey had Lisa ling enter the areas and spoke with a former member that fled.The people in the community were nothing but freaky. Of course it is not correct to remove children from their parents that protect and love them, but this is not the case here.In the name of love unhappy,miserable women repeat what they know is wrong. Where has the laws been all these years? The Contitution has let these kids down. This has been long overlooked and many should be prosecuted. Very very sad..but old and this is not about religion. Polygamy,Incest..what's next?Jadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13151359319212287857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-41144208649024759452008-04-11T21:02:00.000-05:002008-04-11T21:02:00.000-05:00Of course the women go with their children but I d...Of course the women go with their children but I doubt any of these mothers converted, meaning decided to become a member of or involved with a man from this sect, as an adult.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-83249583529896247982008-04-11T13:52:00.000-05:002008-04-11T13:52:00.000-05:00Something I have yet to think of just entered my m...Something I have yet to think of just entered my mind...What awesome men all of these FLDS members must be. I bet they felt really big and strong the moment they were raping these teenagers and taking their virginity. I just wonder how many of these gus have "little man syndrome" and are so insecure that they have to take on teenaged brides to feel like a man? Most real men I know are concerned about protecting children, not abusing them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-53254771923776978592008-04-11T11:24:00.000-05:002008-04-11T11:24:00.000-05:00CPS can't win, can they? If they had only removed...CPS can't win, can they? If they had only removed the one child, then some of these other situations came to light, or another child gave birth, they would be criticised for not having anticipated the situation and removed all the children. So - they remove them all and are considered wrong for that.<BR/><BR/>Before casting stones over how this was handled - tell us how you would have done it. Who gets left with individuals who believe any female past puberty is fair game? Then how do you answer that you "protected" those girls?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-55622780362318555262008-04-11T09:13:00.000-05:002008-04-11T09:13:00.000-05:00Don't see a whole bunch of converted adult women w...<I>Don't see a whole bunch of converted adult women wanting to be part of some freaks harem.</I><BR/><BR/>Except, maybe, all of the adults in this sect? You know, the mothers that are allowed to stay with the children that are in such imminent harm?<BR/><BR/>Grits is right on with this one. Prosecute the hell out of any abusers or rapists. But this whole thing smells of the local churches not wanting this in their back yard and CPS over-reaching.<BR/><BR/>One abuse allegation so they take 416 kids? On what basis? It's OK to uproot 415 other kids who have made no such allegation, just because they can?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-72629436639905943582008-04-10T21:54:00.000-05:002008-04-10T21:54:00.000-05:00Of course this will expose an already overwhelmed ...Of course this will expose an already overwhelmed Texas CPS system. Shine a flashlight long enough on any Texas human services agency and you will find an overwhelmed system.<BR/><BR/>This is Texas. What else would you expect.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-54408292502689409372008-04-10T21:52:00.000-05:002008-04-10T21:52:00.000-05:00They can say whatever they want in court. They don...They can say whatever they want in court. They don't have to fuck the children. Wait until they are adults. <BR/><BR/>Don't see a whole bunch of converted adult women wanting to be part of some freaks harem.<BR/><BR/>please.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-9786026901970421832008-04-10T21:22:00.000-05:002008-04-10T21:22:00.000-05:00jk- could you please provide a link to the specifi...jk- could you please provide a link to the specific Tribune story as I haven't seen that one yet.<BR/><BR/>I'd like to point out a more likely reason for one of the kids to say she has 4 children when she says she has one:<BR/><BR/>It is not unusual for "sister wives" to share the child raising duty, and occasionally all of them might be termed "mother" by the children.<BR/><BR/>I don't know if that is the case here but it is very possible that the quoted kid is including all of the 16 year-old's step-children in the count.<BR/><BR/>This is particularly likely if the children have been separated from their (older) biological mothers and the 16 year-old girl is the only mother figure currently with them.<BR/><BR/>As for the other issue:<BR/><BR/>"each father-mother-child relationship is unique" is probably more accurate.<BR/><BR/>I don't mind the media references to a "compound" so much as I am irritated by the references to "the living spaces" and "living quarters" when simply looking at the pictures show that these "living quarters" are nothing more than houses.<BR/><BR/>Extra large houses to be sure- I guess for the extra wife and kids- but clearly separate dwelling units. They were not all living dormitory style like in Jones town- which is what the term "living quarters" keeps bringing to mind.<BR/><BR/>Polygamist families are separate families- though just about everybody is at least a second cousin somehow.<BR/><BR/>No doubt CPS would have required more time a resources treating them as individual family units- but I believe such an effort would have produced a greater likelihood of success.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-76495857138488857362008-04-10T21:21:00.000-05:002008-04-10T21:21:00.000-05:00Well, I'm back from my "day job" -- which usually ...Well, I'm back from my "day job" -- which usually consists of representing parents and children in CPS cases, including today -- and I see the posts, which this morning were mostly anti-CPS, have evened out a bit, and many folks have made points I would have. So I'll be brief.<BR/><BR/>If you look at the timeline of the investigation (http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/About/News/2008/2008-04-09_chronology.asp), you can see that CPS didn't go in with guns blazing, grab every girl they could find by the hair, and yank them out of the church. Of course, many of you won't believe CPS's version of the timeline.<BR/><BR/>The standard for CPS to do an initial removal of a child from a home is whether it believes the child is in danger. They don't have to have probable cause to make that call. If they believe a child is in danger, their grant of authority extends to other children similarly situated; so if they find 2 girls in a home who they have reason to believe suffered sexual abuse, they can also remove the 3 other girls who are similarly situated. Hope it's apparent why that's a good idea.<BR/><BR/>The reason probable cause is not required is because there's a post-deprivation set of due process rules found in Chapters 262 and 263 of the Family Code.<BR/><BR/>Grits, I guess in a way CPS is interfering in the YFZ men's exercise of religion. I'm sorry, but those rights have to coexist with the rights of the children to practice religion and society's interest in public health and safety. I wouldn't protect a religion that sanctioned parents beating their children until their bones were broken. Your comparison to the Catholic Church is specious; that Church's creed does not call for the molestation of young boys, though of course its practices have resulted in that outrage. The men molesting the girls in this "church" are following the tenets of their religion, or so they'll say in court.<BR/><BR/>I'd like to respond to the rest of y'all, but it's late and my day isn't over yet. Maybe I'll see you tomorrow.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06800907780727476826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-90468721524038794702008-04-10T20:26:00.000-05:002008-04-10T20:26:00.000-05:00Grits,Coverage in the Salt Lake Tribune includes t...Grits,<BR/><BR/>Coverage in the Salt Lake Tribune includes the story about the 16yo with 4 kids. She told CPS she had one, another child later told them 4 kids.<BR/><BR/>To me, there is really a philosophical test here: Is the ranch a home, where all members are one family? Or is the ranch of community of many families.<BR/><BR/>If your view is the former, then you are dealing with a family of men who have either or married underage girls, or condoned it in their "home." Men who have impregnated underage girls, or condoned it. ANd if that was any tradition home vistied by child welfare workers, it would be tough to envision workers allowing the men to stay in those kids lives(and i bet your source, Richard Wexler, agrees). The women, if they're willing to leave behind the "home" that tolerated abuse, should be the chance to reunify with their kids.<BR/><BR/>With the latter philosophy, you're saying: each father-mother-child relationship is unique, and should be treated thusly by CPS. Now the coverage suggests it has been very difficult to establish which kids belong to which mom at the Fort (which also might be because some kids were taken from other FLDS locations and given to these women). So if you ascribe to this philosophy, you have to acknowledge that CPS is going to need a LOT of time to sort this out.Barney Smellcashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17750203187819077138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-59271830330889337092008-04-10T20:19:00.000-05:002008-04-10T20:19:00.000-05:00Well, I guess I'll jump into this fray.Grits and M...Well, I guess I'll jump into this fray.<BR/><BR/>Grits and Michael - you're both right and you're both wrong.<BR/><BR/>Grits your right in that they were well cared for and the foster care system is probably not a better alternative.<BR/><BR/>Michael you're right in that even though they're not being physically abused, the psychological harm caused by extreme religious indoctrination is no less worse than physical abuse.<BR/><BR/>You just can't make blanket statements that they'll be better off one way or another.<BR/><BR/>Long ago CPS worked with families to try to solve problems. Now the philosophy is to snatch the children from the only home they knew and then move quickly for termination.<BR/><BR/>Wholesale removal is an insane idea, then again allowing 14 year olds to be given as child brides to old religious nuts is more insane.<BR/><BR/>They don't have the resources to take it on a case by case basis. They don't have the manpower to monitor and work with the families like they should. <BR/><BR/>CPS is without a doubt one of the most insane bureaucracies. They don't understand that no matter what they do there will be harm in this case. They don't get that their goal should be to do as little harm as possible.<BR/><BR/>No matter what this case is a lose-lose proposition.Ron in Houstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02496306119920809104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-3480046033944100422008-04-10T19:08:00.000-05:002008-04-10T19:08:00.000-05:00All reports claim the child was 15 when "spiritual...All reports claim the child was 15 when "spiritually married" to Mr. Barlow. She was supposedly just "weeks" pregnant a second time. Please go read the news accounts.<BR/><BR/>Any individual case of abuse they find, and I hadn't seen anything about the 16-year old with four kids (plese give a link) prosecute by all means. I've never said otherwise, and doing so should give pause to other FLDS members who might deflower underage girls. For children where there's no specific abuse allegations, though, this is an abuse of government authority that IMO is likely to backfire and allow the group to become MORE insular and immune to intervention, not more accountable, as happened in the wake of the Short Creek raid.Gritsforbreakfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-85386487065809035712008-04-10T18:46:00.000-05:002008-04-10T18:46:00.000-05:00Grits, I'm sorry, but you're wrong when it comes t...Grits, I'm sorry, but you're wrong when it comes to these girls. The original caller was 16, had already had one child, and was pregnant with another. Warren Jeffs is now sitting in prison based on his involvement in forcing a 14 year old girl to marry her first cousin and the rapes that ensued. <BR/><BR/>And news reports today have said that an affidavit released by the police today allege that, during the raid, police found a 16 year old girl who had 4 children and was currently pregnant. That's probably the most vile of them all. 16 years old, and she's likely spent 3 years of that life, if not more, pregnant. <BR/><BR/>That's just the few cases we have from government involvement, and not stories we have from former FLDS members.<BR/><BR/>I'm all for religious freedom, but religious freedom is not a license to be a pedophile or abuse children. If you're a 49 year old man raping and knocking up 14 year old girls, I don't care if God Almighty commanded you to do it, you should be prosecuted and thrown in jail. <BR/><BR/>And if your entire church compound jumps to your defense and says that they legitimately believe that, then that environment should be judged to be dangerous to children and they should be removed, because it's a breeding ground of child abuse and rape.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-84081323150395199262008-04-10T18:27:00.000-05:002008-04-10T18:27:00.000-05:00JK, what if the mothers want to return to their hu...JK, what if the mothers want to return to their husbands? It's not like they left of their own accord.Gritsforbreakfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.com