tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post2231980755577734848..comments2024-03-15T05:45:01.402-05:00Comments on Grits for Breakfast: Shoddy forensics + jailhouse snitch = possible false conviction, execution in capital arson caseGritsforbreakfasthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-59299815789881232012009-09-08T17:19:06.023-05:002009-09-08T17:19:06.023-05:00I'd love to see you explain how come rather th...I'd love to see you explain how come rather than just stating that I'm wrong. Judging from your replies though, I doubt you're interested in a sound and rational discussion.Andreashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08816758888895132111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-25421544380660058422009-09-08T17:06:54.486-05:002009-09-08T17:06:54.486-05:00Anonymous, all I did was follow the logic of your ...<i>Anonymous, all I did was follow the logic of your previous statement.</i><br /><br />No, you didn't. And I don't have time for your sleazy games.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-17235367971299144502009-09-06T11:52:29.054-05:002009-09-06T11:52:29.054-05:00Anonymous, all I did was follow the logic of your ...Anonymous, all I did was follow the logic of your previous statement.Andreashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08816758888895132111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-86571562530122719722009-09-06T11:51:34.238-05:002009-09-06T11:51:34.238-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Andreashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08816758888895132111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-89126019745081974742009-09-05T15:52:04.538-05:002009-09-05T15:52:04.538-05:00So you're essentially saying that an innocent ...<i>So you're essentially saying that an innocent man would take the DAs offer of a life sentence and admit to killing his own kids? </i><br /><br />I didn't post that - you did.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-61359414306692740392009-09-05T13:04:36.265-05:002009-09-05T13:04:36.265-05:00Regina's postulate: "Since he wasn't ...Regina's postulate: "Since he wasn't a nice guy, it's okay to murder him."<br /><br />Regina, if only we kept a tab of all your mishaps - it would help push your case towards DR!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-25349486927901519332009-09-04T19:50:58.873-05:002009-09-04T19:50:58.873-05:00Mr. Dudley-moron,
A man was executed (murdered?) ...Mr. Dudley-moron,<br /><br />A man was executed (murdered?) by the state of Texas primarily because of falsified scientific evidence, and you're still trying to defend this as a "fair trial"?<br /><br />You need to stop thinking with rear end!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-33515880851442194252009-09-04T18:36:25.350-05:002009-09-04T18:36:25.350-05:00From Gann's New Yorker article.
This was also ...From Gann's New Yorker article.<br />This was also sent to the New Yorker<br /><br />The article page number, followed by the article comment, followed by my REPLY<br /><br />p 9 In recent years, though, questions have mounted over whether the system is fail-safe. Since 1976, more than a hundred and thirty people on death row have been exonerated. DNA testing, which was developed in the eighties, saved seventeen of them, but the technique can be used only in rare instances.<br /> <br />REPLY: I know of no one that thinks any government programs are failsafe.<br /> <br />The 130 "exonerated"<br /> <br />Mr. Gann, please review: The 130 (now 135) death row "innocents" scam<br />http://homicidesurvivors.com/2009/03/04/fact-checking-issues-on-innocence-and-the-death-penalty.aspx<br /> <br />On the DNA front, Gann says DNA saved 17 death row inmates. Nonsense. First, can Gann show that DNA saved any of those 17. No. <br /> <br />Some reality. Only about 12% of death row inmates have been executed. About 36% have had their cases overturned. Secondly, more directly, I think 8-9 of those 17 had already been taken off death row, prior to the DNA exclusion. <br /> <br />Those were not even subject to execution any more.<br /> <br />Gann could have speculated that innocents are more protected with the death penalty than they are with lesser sentences. But, why would the defense, uh, a reporter do that? Maybe its true. <br /> <br />----------------------<br /> <br />p 9 In 2000, after thirteen people on death row in Illinois were exonerated, George Ryan, who was then governor of the state, suspended the death penalty.<br /> <br />REPLY: Instead of being misleading, why can't Gann fact check and tell us how many of those 13 are actually innocent? Maybe there is a reason why. <br /> <br />Gann, review: "The Death Penalty Debate in Illinois", JJKinsella,6/2000, http://www.dcba.org/brief/junissue/2000/art010600.htm<br /> <br />Yes, some of the reviews within the Kinsella article are very incomplete. My point is the 13 were not exonerated. And Gann just used it, anyway. Is fact checking so bad?<br />-----------------<br /> <br />p 9 In 1993, Ruben Cantu was executed in Texas for fatally shooting a man during a robbery. Years later, a second victim, who survived the shooting, told the Houston Chronicle that he had been pressured by police to identify Cantu as the gunman, even though he believed Cantu to be innocent. Sam Millsap, the district attorney in the case, who had once supported capital punishment (“I’m no wild-eyed, pointy-headed liberal”), said that he was disturbed by the thought that he had made a mistake. <br /> <br />REPLY: Fact checking would be nice. <br /> <br />Ruben Cantu: In the Matter of Juan Moreno: Investigation Relating to The State of Texas v. Ruben Cantu, Cause No. 85-CR-1303, 6/26/2007<br />http://www.bexar.org/da2/body_pages/morenocantuinvestigation.pdf<br /> <br />Instead of playing the bluff, using Gann's imagination style of reporting, where Gann wrote that Millsap "thought he had made a mistake.", why not be a little less nebulous and suggestive. How about - One could safely call Millsap an anti death penalty activist, who had radically changed his statements on Cantu. Explain that Millsap has gone from Cantu was innocent to, well maybe, he didn't get adequate due process, or various versions of that. Gann wasn't trying to get us to imagine that Millsap thought Cantu was actually innocent, was he? Millsap "thought he had made a mistake."<br /> <br />And Gann left all of that out because . . . he only had 17 pages for his article?dudleysharphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12796468204722853648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-56400094168725959242009-09-04T17:50:39.719-05:002009-09-04T17:50:39.719-05:00dudley-moron: "Grann never concluded that Wil...dudley-moron: "Grann never concluded that Willingham was actually innocent. He can't."<br /><br />Mr. Dudley-moron, it is the outstanding integrity of David Grann that makes his reporting truly objective.<br /><br />One can equally well make the counter-claim: "Mr. Dudley-moron can't conclude that Willingham was guilty".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-21617500069211811952009-09-02T03:23:54.960-05:002009-09-02T03:23:54.960-05:00Anonymous: I assume you're the same person who...Anonymous: I assume you're the same person who wrote the following:<br /><br />"Are you on crack? Before trial, in concession to the family, the DA offered a life sentence for a plea of guilty. He refused it. And yes, it does sound like the act of a guilty of man."<br /><br />So you're essentially saying that an innocent man would take the DAs offer of a life sentence and admit to killing his own kids? Please. There is nothing in this one act that proves his guilt. Neither of course that he is innocent.Andreashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08816758888895132111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-75668619852696170842009-09-01T23:52:50.215-05:002009-09-01T23:52:50.215-05:00Grann did indeed conclude that he was innocent. He...Grann did indeed conclude that he was innocent. He says it outright in the http://www.newyorker.com/online/2009/09/07/090907on_audio_grann.<br /><br />And I agree.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13331738639088766979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-80930716058808160122009-09-01T17:53:00.897-05:002009-09-01T17:53:00.897-05:00Funny how this is identical to how a truly innocen...<i>Funny how this is identical to how a truly innocent man would act as well.</i><br /><br />No, it's not the same at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-54084956417822594662009-09-01T14:04:50.798-05:002009-09-01T14:04:50.798-05:00Grits (Scott):
Next time an anti death penalty pe...Grits (Scott):<br /><br />Next time an anti death penalty person, say Scott Cobb, says Willingham is innocent, why don't you ask him to prove it.<br /><br />And, let's be honest and not do the "legally innocent until proven guilty" stuff.<br /><br />I think we can all be honest enough to admit we are speaking of "actual innocence".<br /><br />Do you agree that "actual innocnce" is the real subject?dudleysharphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12796468204722853648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-28392550875687328652009-09-01T13:57:46.758-05:002009-09-01T13:57:46.758-05:00Grits (Scott), you wrote to Regina:
"when yo...Grits (Scott), you wrote to Regina:<br /><br />"when you put words in quotes and attribute them to someone, try to make sure they actually said them. It makes for a more productive debate."<br /><br />Good point. Something we should all try to do.dudleysharphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12796468204722853648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-38785666276606983422009-09-01T13:54:00.076-05:002009-09-01T13:54:00.076-05:00"And yes, it does sound like the act of a gui..."And yes, it does sound like the act of a guilty of man"<br /><br />Funny how this is identical to how a truly innocent man would act as well.Andreashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08816758888895132111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-59754999267635165892009-09-01T13:53:21.856-05:002009-09-01T13:53:21.856-05:00Grits (Scott):
I think your a smart guy.
I have ...Grits (Scott):<br /><br />I think your a smart guy.<br /><br />I have never voiced an opinion as to Willingham's guilt or innocence. <br /><br />So, don't make up an opinion for me.<br /><br />Nor do I, secretly, hold an opinion one way or another.<br /><br />I don't know.<br /><br />I have been concerned about this case for some time.<br /><br />A lot of folks have jumped on the innocence bandwagon, with only evidence that the forensics was bad, indeed. <br /><br />Bad forensics doesn't tell us what good forensics would have said had it been employed in the original investigation.<br /><br />Good forensics may have found for arson and it may not have.<br /><br />I am not sure we will ever know.<br /><br />I am reluctant to jump in with an opinion, at this juncture, because of lack of objective knowledge.<br /><br />Not only have I read the New Yorker piece, as noted above, I also sent the author all of the material I have posted here, as well as I have directed him to your blog.<br /><br />As you likely know, it is not uncommon for the media to jump into the innocence jambory, with irresitable enthusiasm and little objective investigation.<br /><br />For examples:<br /><br />Roger Keith Coleman <br />Ruben Cantu<br />Roger O'Dell<br />Larry Griffin <br />Sacco and Vanzetti<br />Julius and Ethel Rosenberg<br /><br />or the blanket<br /><br />The 130 (now 135) death row "innocents" scam<br />http://homicidesurvivors.com/2009/03/04/fact-checking-issues-on-innocence-and-the-death-penalty.aspxdudleysharphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12796468204722853648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-57088853089113363612009-09-01T13:37:50.475-05:002009-09-01T13:37:50.475-05:00Dudley, perhaps it's time for you and others c...Dudley, perhaps it's time for you and others convinced of Willingham's guilt to <a href="http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann" rel="nofollow">refute the New Yorker piece</a> in detail instead of aiming only to rebut anonymous blog commenters.Gritsforbreakfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-85632908711378926582009-09-01T13:09:05.653-05:002009-09-01T13:09:05.653-05:00Time to face the truth in the Willingham case
ht...Time to face the truth in the Willingham case <br /><br />http://deathpenaltyblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/09/time-to-face-the-truth-in-the.htmldudleysharphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12796468204722853648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-25002815755034400832009-09-01T12:48:13.635-05:002009-09-01T12:48:13.635-05:00Anonymous said...He was repeatedly offered the opp...<i>Anonymous said...He was repeatedly offered the opportunity to cop a guilty plea and get the death penalty waived. Was that the act of a guilty man? 9/01/2009 11:54:00 AM </i><br /><br />Are you on crack? Before trial, in concession to the family, the DA offered a life sentence for a plea of guilty. He refused it. And yes, it does sound like the act of a guilty of man. They think they are so smart - so superior, that they are going to beat the charges. It happens all the time and is another sign that they are sociopaths. Shame on you for lying.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-24456561447706628622009-09-01T11:54:05.361-05:002009-09-01T11:54:05.361-05:00He was repeatedly offered the opportunity to cop a...He was repeatedly offered the opportunity to cop a guilty plea and get the death penalty waived. Was that the act of a guilty man?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-19122781245850621252009-08-31T09:44:18.659-05:002009-08-31T09:44:18.659-05:00To: Scott Cobb:
I sent Grann the above reference,...To: Scott Cobb:<br /><br />I sent Grann the above reference, as well as referred him to this blog and also sent to him:<br /><br />The 130 (now 135) death row "innocents" scam<br />http://homicidesurvivors.com/2009/03/04/fact-checking-issues-on-innocence-and-the-death-penalty.aspxdudleysharphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12796468204722853648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-12944086007452303322009-08-31T09:34:00.677-05:002009-08-31T09:34:00.677-05:00bad link, above
"Willingham guilt never in d...bad link, above<br /><br />"Willingham guilt never in doubt", Guest Commentary, Hon. John Jackson, Guest Columnist, Corsicana Daily Sun, August 29, 2009 08:00 pm,<br /><br />http://www.corsicanadailysun.com/opinion/local_story_241210447.html?keyword=topstorydudleysharphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12796468204722853648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-87063892374776735182009-08-31T09:27:53.601-05:002009-08-31T09:27:53.601-05:00Scott:
Grann never concluded that Willingham was ...Scott:<br /><br />Grann never concluded that Willingham was actually innocent. He can't. <br /><br />However, he does seem to buy into some falsehoods of anti death penalty folks, re the false claims of actual innocence or exoneration in other cases, without fact checking them. Pretty standard, sadly.<br /><br />There is, currently, no finding of Willingham's actual innocence. It may be impossible to determine Willingham's actual guilt or innocence, because of the passage of time, as well as the total screwing up of the forensic's by the state.<br /><br />Anti's, like you have, predictably, already been proclaiming Willingham's actual innocence, while avoiding the additional evidence that points to his actual guilt. Also predictable.<br /><br />It is the standard, anti death penalty way, with many cases for examples.<br /><br />Wait to base you conclusions on all of the evidence. <br /><br />The final chapter has not been written.dudleysharphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12796468204722853648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-61575302581871336782009-08-31T00:29:59.040-05:002009-08-31T00:29:59.040-05:00In the Sept 7, 2009 edition of the New Yorker Davi...In the Sept 7, 2009 edition of the New Yorker David Grann <a href="http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann?currentPage=all" rel="nofollow">comprehensively examines the Todd Willingham case in which an innocent person was executed by Texas</a>. The proven execution of an innocent person means the end of the death penalty in the United States. Todd Willingham was innocent and Texas killed him. <br /><br />Governor Perry and the Texas Board of Pardons and Paroles had been given a report before the execution that cast doubt that the fire was arson, but they ignored it.Scott Cobbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-89059544661900340292009-08-30T12:38:58.677-05:002009-08-30T12:38:58.677-05:00And j, who I presume is the judge, and former DA w...And j, who I presume is the judge, and former DA who prosecuted Willingham, also provides much need cross examilnation in the public square.dudleysharphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12796468204722853648noreply@blogger.com