tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post4223795381849089747..comments2024-03-15T05:45:01.402-05:00Comments on Grits for Breakfast: Messages promoting sentence 'enhancements' may boost crimeGritsforbreakfasthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-89903329227473767282009-02-05T13:01:00.000-06:002009-02-05T13:01:00.000-06:00More people die at hospitals than on the highway. ...More people die at hospitals than on the highway. It must be safer to play in the highway. Your logic is astounding!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-53687284639541196052009-02-03T21:59:00.000-06:002009-02-03T21:59:00.000-06:00"after "enhancing" penalties for scrap metal theft..."after "enhancing" penalties for scrap metal theft to a felony, the number of thefts significantly increased"<BR/><BR/>yeah, 'cause the bounty hunters can set people up really easy on this one as they lurk outside of unemployment lines and bait unknowing dupes to help them load that extra scrap metal "just laying around" into the back of their car...<BR/><BR/>ah, the joys of the prison for profit system!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-47357116295213544542009-02-03T05:57:00.000-06:002009-02-03T05:57:00.000-06:00Do you sometimes get the feeling that the "tuff on...Do you sometimes get the feeling that the "tuff on crime" folks don't have much concern about the shameful fact that Texas has over three-quarters of a million people under supervision because they consider the persons under supervision to be some sort of manifestation of "those people?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-72235974318047637722009-02-03T05:40:00.000-06:002009-02-03T05:40:00.000-06:0012:40 writes: "We are not accountable for much any...12:40 writes: "We are not accountable for much anymore."<BR/><BR/>With 2,324 separate felonies on the books and 3/4 of a million people under control of the Texas justice system - basically the highest incarceration rate on the planet - to me this is an asinine statement.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps what you mean is that the state has spent SO much energy trying to hold people accountable that the implicit messages, as described in the post, have counterproductively taught society the opposite lessons from the ones intended. If "accountable" means be punished by the state, that's being done en masse, to the point that the taxpayers can't afford it anymore. That's why we need to dig around in the toolbox some more and find another implement besides your hammer.Gritsforbreakfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-15838876727139123082009-02-03T00:40:00.000-06:002009-02-03T00:40:00.000-06:00We are no accountable for much anymore. When farme...We are no accountable for much anymore. When farmers and businesses get into financial troubles we bale them out. They are not held accountable for mismanagement and underhanded dealings, they get paid for it. If I order coffee and spill it on myself, I'm going to sue. It couldn't be my clumsiness. If I smoke and get cancer it's the tobacco co. fault. If I get fat it's Mcdonalds fault. Guns kill, not people using the gun. SUV's run over other cars, no the driver. If I murder my family and I'm 15 it's not my fault. I have unmet needs and I was on meds. Myy neighorhood makes me commit crimes. I am an alcoholic, I am a drug addict, I was abused, etc.... No, we accept little little.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-55907141371281303952009-02-02T21:23:00.000-06:002009-02-02T21:23:00.000-06:00There is an old story that applies here. Some old...There is an old story that applies here. Some old guy and his wife were told by the fellow renting them some land that they had free run of the place, with the exception of some very special fruit trees he wanted left alone. He told the couple to use and consume whatever they liked, but keep their hands of his apple tree or they were "dead". Now thes two renters had never experienced dead before, so it didn't really register what the landlord was saying. But they knew one thing. This guys rule about the apple tree meant that it was really worth thinking about what made that tree so valuable, that the landlord would do this thing called death to you. Well, sure enough, the temptation was just too great, and they went and broke the law this guy laid down. And was there a penalty? Yes. Did subsequent generations stay away from their neighbors apple trees? Nope. Why? Well, only God knows, and he's still probably asking himself, what have I gone and created, a little monster? <BR/><BR/>Laws are made by politicians who believe that a particular group has an interest worth protecting and which has a broader social value. Unfortunately, politicians not only have to make decisions about which interests to protect, they also have to do so without pissing off enough of the electorate, causing them to lose an election. Tough on crime gets votes and it also gets campaigne contributions. There are very, very few criminals, who sit around and mull over the punishments in the penal code for various offenses. Half of them can't read, much less understand the code. They have a want for something, and for the most part, don't ever think about getting caught. Cops do love new laws. They often lobby for them (see DPS). They also will go looking for violators. Indeed, cops have had to become almost as crafty as their DA lawyer brethren in their understanding of enforcement and effective prosecution. Remember, cops and legislators are their own special interest groups. Cops have jobs mostly because of crime, not despite it. Legislators would not be around long if they didn't "generate" some kind of violation. It's somewhat self-serving. We have so many laws in Texas that even the most well intentioned, law biding person could be locked up in a matter of hours for unintentionally violating laws they did not even know existed. We need to get back to basics. One definition of theft. You took what didn't belong to you. One punishment, maybe one year for every $100 in value. Keep it simple stupidAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-35428021309539727892009-02-02T20:46:00.000-06:002009-02-02T20:46:00.000-06:00"Who cares if it doesn't deter theft?"So now we do..."Who cares if it doesn't deter theft?"<BR/><BR/>So now we don't care if public policy impacts crime? Terrific. Then what's the point of making it a felony? Just to create more prison guard jobs?<BR/><BR/>Nobody but you has mentioned the word "rehabilitation," so I'm not sure why you think that enters into this discussion. It seems like a red herring to me.Gritsforbreakfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-76497998394951691562009-02-02T20:40:00.000-06:002009-02-02T20:40:00.000-06:00"Absolutely, at least when the only reason offered..."Absolutely, at least when the only reason offered for making it a felony was to "send a message" that supposedly would deter theft."<BR/><BR/>Who cares if it doesn't deter theft? Make it a felony for the simple reason you can impose a greater consequence.<BR/><BR/>I don't think the death penalty deters capital offenses; however, I still think the individual should be put to death if they commit a brutal murder.<BR/><BR/>Liberals speak from a position that everyone can be rehabilitated or everyone deep down wants to do right. That is complete nonsense. Some people steal simply because that don't want to pay for it. If that is the case, punish them!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-13083823390217724082009-02-02T20:15:00.000-06:002009-02-02T20:15:00.000-06:008:07 asks: "Just because they might not worry abou...8:07 asks: "Just because they might not worry about it being a felony does that mean it doesn't need to be?"<BR/><BR/>Absolutely, at least when the only reason offered for making it a felony was to "send a message" that supposedly would deter theft.<BR/><BR/>Otherwise, all the stuff about society shunning accountability, etc., IMO is BS. 3/4 of a million people are under supervision by the criminal justice system in Texas. We hold plenty of people personally accountable. In fact, it's ALL we know how to do to confront crime. But just because the only tool you own is a hammer doesn't mean every problem is a nail. I'm suggesting those tactics might be usefully supplemented by research-based approaches. Is that so unreasonable?Gritsforbreakfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-9296840199361470712009-02-02T20:08:00.000-06:002009-02-02T20:08:00.000-06:007:47 - I don't read the "authority" aspect as deno...7:47 - I don't read the "authority" aspect as denoting "punishment." Quite the opposite. He's saying people tend to obey authority figures BECAUSE they're authority figures, not because of fear of reprisal.Gritsforbreakfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-26398280959839472172009-02-02T20:07:00.000-06:002009-02-02T20:07:00.000-06:00Could it be that people commit crimes because they...Could it be that people commit crimes because they are people-because they put their own interests or egos above the interests, feelings or lives of others?<BR/>I have to say that people stole copper and scrap when the prices were high. When they went down, they stopped. I doubt many of them knew it was a felony offense. Could it be that their selfish needs were more important that concern over being caught? Does it matter. Just because they might not worry about it being a felony does that mean it doesn't need to be?<BR/>Isn't our society just a little screwed up? We shun accountability and we lower our expectations of others when we should perhaps raise them. Most of us lack the character of our ancestors. We are spoiled and do not exercise constraints over ourselves. We are very self centered. We ae just very confused and relucatant to stand up for much of anything. <BR/>We spew out statisitics regarding neuroscience-brains don't develop until age 17, no 25, no 50. We know neuroscience is difficult. The human brain is very complex and somethings we just don't know. Who knows-I learned at a conference that 14 and 15 yr. olds are perfectly capable of having mature, healthy sexual relationships but if they commit a crime they were too immature to be held much accountable. Yeh, we are screwed up. <BR/>We blame mental illness for crimes. Sometimes I'm sure that is true. If it is sometimes true, if I killed your 5 yr old do you want me out getting teatment with no real proven results. What if i'm on ritalin for ADHD? Isn't that a great reason why I behaved inappropriately. Keep me out.<BR/>There is no all or nothing in this business. Should we sometimes try 16 yr. olds as adults? Sometimes yes. It just depends. Crime rates are down which proves we need to let alot of people out. Excuse me, Tell me how the crime rates got down? Could it be because we did put more people in prison? <BR/>If we release all of these offenders back out into society how will we supervise them. Do we consider once a month reporting to some official, supervision when 99% of the rest of their time is unsupervised. What if they wear a leg monitor? Only good if you keep them on. Can you supervise someone 24/7. Wouldn't that be costly.<BR/>What is the cost of letting criminals back onto the streets verses the cost of keeping them in?<BR/>Why do we talk so much about the offender and not the victim? We have so much compassion for offenders. Aren't people who are repeatedly victimized by bully's that destroy their property, steal their belongings and assault them only to be let right back out imprisoned? That is a terrible prison from which there is no escape. How about good old family counseling and probation for the man who beat his 5 yr old. When do we send him away, after he kills. I find it alarming that so many murder victims are under the age of 5, and they died at the hand of another, not a gun. Why don't we consider these things?<BR/>Give me sme good solid evidence that showing the effectiveness of rehabilitation programs. It's not that I don't believe in them, I just know how statisitics are manipulated. What do we want in our society? I want to be safe. I don't think we need scores of new laws, I think we just need to be reasonable. I don't know about anybody else, but I'm 46 years old and am not a criminal yet. I worked with criminals everyday for 18 yrs. If they are more likely to get worse while incarcerated, why I am I not? When I see trash on the ground I am compelled to pick it up and throw it away. If I see a letter sticking out of a mailbox, I push it back in. The ones in my little town are crappy. There are alot of abandoned houses in my town, I am not a criminal yet. I volunteer to clean them up. I am not perfect, believe me. When I have screwed up it is because I was really just thinking about myself. I can say I was the adult child of an alcoholic, blah, blah,. or it's my ADD. But that is not a reason, it's an excuse. I went to the petrified forest and I love rocks so much I picked up a tiny chip, I admit it. I didn't pay attention to the signs, I wanted that rock. When I went to chaco canyon in New Mexico I saw all sign saying federal offense and and I saw none. I didn't think of any sign when I stepped over the barrier tape and picked up a tiny shard of ansasi pottery. I was wrong to do it, period. Folks human desires are strong, yet most ous manage to constrain ourselves most of the time. We must at least then look at trade offs. If I become weak and hurt somebody it is reasonable that I should expect to be punished, bottom line. I don't think w need excessive fines for all crimes, rather they should be sensible. No I can't buy the ehancement thing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-24684989318543983902009-02-02T19:57:00.000-06:002009-02-02T19:57:00.000-06:00"Does it occur to anyone that once an offense is e..."Does it occur to anyone that once an offense is enhanced it hits law enforcement's radar screen and results in more arrests?"<BR/><BR/>No it doesn't. It's already a crime so an arrest could be made anyway. What he apparently proposes to do is make all a/c thefts a felony.<BR/><BR/>There are already value levels that define penalty grades. Theft is theft and should be based on the value of the item(s) taken, not what was stolen.<BR/><BR/>Besides 3:30, I don't know of many a/c units sold today that you can buy under $1500, unless it's a cheap window unit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-45587087344974424482009-02-02T19:47:00.000-06:002009-02-02T19:47:00.000-06:00I am simply saying I could use his research to sup...I am simply saying I could use his research to support my argument; however, I am coming from the authority aspect of his research whereas you are arguing social proof.<BR/><BR/>I agree 100% with the example given under social proof. I will be the first to admit that if I walk outside and everyone is looking up, I am going to look up also. Bit is a huge stretch to tie that example to criminal behavior.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-41741580733453062422009-02-02T19:37:00.000-06:002009-02-02T19:37:00.000-06:00Care to elaborate? There's not much on that page.C...Care to elaborate? There's not much on that page.<BR/><BR/>Certainly it's true I just focused on a subset of his research, what on that page is labeled "social proof."<BR/><BR/>It's also true I haven't read much of his stuff beyond what I've linked to. I'm blogging about ideas that are relatively new to me and exploring their implications. But if you want to quote from his research to contradict the implications I've taken from it, I'm interested to hear your take.Gritsforbreakfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-3078338905965537452009-02-02T19:29:00.000-06:002009-02-02T19:29:00.000-06:00I did a little reading on Robert Cialdini. You ha...I did a little reading on Robert Cialdini. You have over simplified his research.<BR/><BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_CialdiniAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-17056157556667786832009-02-02T19:08:00.000-06:002009-02-02T19:08:00.000-06:00That's fine, 7:00, as long as you're willing to ag...That's fine, 7:00, as long as you're willing to agree with this caveat: "I don't care if crime increases and more people are victimized. Personal accountability for offenders is all that matters, and lawbreaking should never engender any but a punitive response by government, even if it makes us less safe."<BR/><BR/>If that's what you believe, fine, your statements are consistent. If you would actually like to see crime and victimization decline, perhaps it would behoove you to consider a broader view.Gritsforbreakfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-58798070206606266122009-02-02T19:00:00.000-06:002009-02-02T19:00:00.000-06:00Where is the personal accountability in all of thi...Where is the personal accountability in all of this? People can be steered into stealing and other criminal behavior? I guess if I get behind the wheel of car drunk, I can blame those clever budweiser commercials for leading me astray. Life is all about choices. You make the wrong decision there is a consequence to pay.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-56798064736183397722009-02-02T16:53:00.000-06:002009-02-02T16:53:00.000-06:00To 4:40 - You say "excuses," I'd say "reasons." No...To 4:40 - You say "excuses," I'd say "reasons." Nobody's making excuses for thieves, but rather discussing the effectiveness of various public policy options for reducing theft. The experimental stats cited in the post, to me, are compelling. Do you have reason to dispute them?<BR/><BR/>According to the <A HREF="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/anjana_ahuja/article5562596.ece" REL="nofollow">Dutch researchers cited</A>, "People can actually be steered into criminal behaviour, such as stealing, simply by tinkering with their environment. In fact, the scientists claim, if you know what psychological buttons to press, you can make antisocial behaviour spread like a contagious disease."<BR/><BR/>If people can be "steered" into criminal behavior, understanding those dynamics, they can also be steered away from it.<BR/><BR/>The drug war, scrap metal penalties, etc., show that just jacking up penalties ad infinitum does not necessarily reduce criminality, so unless you're just willing say it's okay to tolerate current levels of crime, I see no problem with looking for other, more effective ways to reduce victimization.Gritsforbreakfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-81450278944372915762009-02-02T16:40:00.000-06:002009-02-02T16:40:00.000-06:00We are a society of excuses and this string of pos...We are a society of excuses and this string of posts just reiterates my point. Who cares if they pass legislation that makes stealing an air conditioner a felony. If you don't steal air conditioners, you have nothing to worry about!!! <BR/><BR/>But I guess you guys are concerned about the potential increase in AC thefts based on the fact the penalty may be enhanced.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-90543426850951088842009-02-02T16:36:00.000-06:002009-02-02T16:36:00.000-06:00So we're back to the old clean slate theory showin...So we're back to the old clean slate theory showing environment is a main influence in behavior. Bradshaw's theory could be right, as opposed to jung, freud, and ericson and piaget....actually, I still like piaget's work, but even before Briggs did their personality test, it was no challenge to look down the street at the families and kids to see that envoronment raises a personality. The same is true in adulthood..environment makes the man. The prison man isn't the free man. So what now? Put all the inmates in a convent/monistary or out on a compund with a huge group of new-agers planting flowers? Maybe.x4livinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06904131897122610452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-27141222995835612612009-02-02T15:30:00.000-06:002009-02-02T15:30:00.000-06:00Does it occur to anyone that once an offense is en...Does it occur to anyone that once an offense is enhanced it hits law enforcement's radar screen and results in more arrests? The offense probably isn't happening more than it was before, it just becomes sexier to law enforcement...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-28942924262908542322009-02-02T14:22:00.000-06:002009-02-02T14:22:00.000-06:00Sadly, my newly elected state representative from ...Sadly, my newly elected state representative from Mesquite has sponsored just such a bill, making it a felony to steal an air conditioner. I was looking for something to back up the letter I wanted to send, asking him to reconsider the policy. Thank you very much for giving me a clear, concrete reason why he should let his proposal quietly die.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12547078421687484060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-6799670084089730162009-02-02T14:08:00.000-06:002009-02-02T14:08:00.000-06:00Rage, I do think there is causality implied in the...Rage, I do think there is causality implied in the experiments described in the post, but I agree it'd overstate things to assume that's at play on Texas' scrap metal enhancement. Too many variables and alternate explanations.<BR/><BR/>We <I>can</I> say, I think, without fear of contradiction (by data, anyway) that the scrap metal enhancement did not reduce theft or increase public safety, but you're right we can't say it <I>caused</I> the crime increase.<BR/><BR/>Meanwhile, knock one back for me, will ya, since you're drinking at work today. I'm pretty busy today and remain annoyingly sober. ;)Gritsforbreakfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-40793464412818132072009-02-02T13:19:00.000-06:002009-02-02T13:19:00.000-06:00Seemed like you were attributing more causation.Bu...Seemed like you were attributing more causation.<BR/><BR/>But hey, I'm drinking at work this mid-morning and afternoon, so I may have read too much into it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-9737964682670340222009-02-02T11:40:00.000-06:002009-02-02T11:40:00.000-06:00And to think that I thought Florida was the only s...And to think that I thought Florida was the only state to come up with these brillant ideas.1American4Justicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14293775282827210578noreply@blogger.com