tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post6486478028532280119..comments2024-03-25T20:06:39.794-05:00Comments on Grits for Breakfast: Which is worse: Life without parole or the death penalty?Gritsforbreakfasthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-63372548357618152642010-06-04T11:21:00.101-05:002010-06-04T11:21:00.101-05:00Dudley, as a general principle the client gets to ...Dudley, as a general principle the client gets to choose the goals of the representation. So if a competent client is set on volunteering for death, and the lawyer can't sway him, the lawyer has a duty to seek death for him or withdraw from the case. I'm no death penalty historian, but I believe there have been several cases with true volunteers.<br /><br />But the low number of volunteers doesn't reflect the choices defendants would make on their own.Mark Bennetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04128739833441582127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-9224064055033437392010-06-04T11:07:30.499-05:002010-06-04T11:07:30.499-05:00Mark:
I have spoken to several defense attorneys ...Mark:<br /><br />I have spoken to several defense attorneys about the death penalty.<br /><br />I think many of them look at it like they do all cases, in that they will, nearly always, seek out the lesser sanction, as either <br /><br />1) an obligation to their client and/or <br /><br />2)that they find the lesser sanction more appropriate.<br /><br />Do you know of any case where the defense counsel and their client both felt that the death penalty was the most appropriate sanction and there was a plea of guilty, the death penalty was requested in the punishment phase and, if sentenced to death, the inmate waived appeals?dudleysharphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12796468204722853648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-75708054910983688142010-06-04T10:56:59.758-05:002010-06-04T10:56:59.758-05:00While Dudley's statistics are accurate, they d...While Dudley's statistics are accurate, they don't show the entire picture. <br /><br />The decisions made in capital cases reflect the philosophy of the capital defense lawyers as well as of the capital defendants. In a typical capital case, the lawyer spends some time trying to convince the client that it's not better to just let the government kill him.<br /><br />If capital defense lawyers didn't strongly believe that LWOP was better than death, you can rest assured that there would be many more "volunteers" for death.Mark Bennetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04128739833441582127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-47594227237515512722010-06-04T10:33:27.965-05:002010-06-04T10:33:27.965-05:00It is clear that those subject to the death penalt...It is clear that those subject to the death penalty fear execution more than LWOP.<br /><br />Which is worse depends on the afterlife, I suspect.<br /><br />For those subject to the death penalty, the fear of the unknown, death, is worse than that which they already know, which is life and for about 70% of those who are sentenced to death, they already know what incarceration was like.<br /><br />A brief review, in the context of fear and deterrence.<br /><br />Some death penalty opponents argue against death penalty deterrence, stating that it's a harsher penalty to be locked up without any possibility of getting out.<br /><br />Reality paints a very different picture.<br /> <br />Let's look at those who actually face the death penalty and see what they choose.<br /><br />What percentage of capital murderers seek a plea bargain to a death sentence? Zero or close to it. They prefer long term imprisonment.<br /><br />What percentage of convicted capital murderers argue for execution in the penalty phase of their capital trial? Zero or close to it. They prefer long term imprisonment.<br /><br />What percentage of death row inmates waive their appeals and speed up the execution process? Nearly zero. They prefer long term imprisonment.<br /><br />This is not, even remotely, in dispute.<br /><br />What of that more rational group, the potential murderers who choose not to murder, is it likely that they, like most of us, fear death more than life?<br /><br />Life is preferred over death. Death is feared more than life.dudleysharphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12796468204722853648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-16644503406945968482010-06-03T21:16:43.951-05:002010-06-03T21:16:43.951-05:00I think the reason why living in DR in Texas is mo...I think the reason why living in DR in Texas is more severe is that, in the one male unit that has it, DR life is made to be very severe and confining. Male lifers can be at many units and may have different arrangements.<br /><br />But lifers stay in for life while DR people are eventually killed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-79163880305555897152008-05-28T18:32:00.000-05:002008-05-28T18:32:00.000-05:00Which is more severe? It's an intensely personal q...Which is more severe? It's an intensely personal question.<BR/><BR/>I think that in a crunch most westerners would probably behave as though death were worse than LWOP.Mark Bennetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04128739833441582127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-28991335759374144922008-05-28T17:23:00.000-05:002008-05-28T17:23:00.000-05:00If your question really meant "which is worse", yo...If your question really meant "which is worse", you would have had no respondents unless you were seaking responses from zombies.<BR/><BR/>I presumed you wanted opinons from those not yet deceased.<BR/><BR/>The fact is unassailable that death is feared more than life.<BR/><BR/>It is feared more because it is perceived as worse, at least by the subject group those really counts - murderers facing the death penalty.<BR/><BR/>Remember, about 70% of those who are actually sentenced to death already know what jail is like and they prefer a lifetime of jail over death.<BR/><BR/>We know that capital murderers are saying we fear death more than life. They fear it because they believe it is wors. That is clear.<BR/><BR/>I suggest you may want to challenge everyone that responds to your question, unless they are experienced zombies who also have experience with prison, as that is the only group you may except an experienced answer from.<BR/><BR/>Regarding Christians, they believe that the afterlife may be much better or much worse, as you know.<BR/><BR/>The fear of that unknown likely scares many a death row inmate, thus the ubiquitous death row conversions.dudleysharphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12796468204722853648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-12287284146678088192008-05-28T17:04:00.000-05:002008-05-28T17:04:00.000-05:00Dudley, I did not dispute death is "feared" more. ...Dudley, I did not dispute death is "feared" more. But is it worse? How do you know?<BR/><BR/>Death is feared because it's unknown, not because it's demonstrably "worse" than the existence we know now. A lot of Christians believe it may be better.Gritsforbreakfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-42448316607188552102008-05-28T16:26:00.000-05:002008-05-28T16:26:00.000-05:00"Oh, and it's wench, not wrench."Mmmmmm... wenches...<I>"Oh, and it's wench, not wrench."</I><BR/><BR/>Mmmmmm... wenches.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-91306588159993701072008-05-28T16:05:00.000-05:002008-05-28T16:05:00.000-05:00Clearly, death is more severe.What percentage of c...Clearly, death is more severe.<BR/><BR/>What percentage of capital murderers seek a plea bargain to a death sentence? Zero or close to it. They prefer long term imprisonment.<BR/> <BR/>What percentage of convicted capital murderers argue for execution in the penalty phase of their capital trial? Zero or close to it. They prefer long term imprisonment.<BR/> <BR/>What percentage of death row inmates waive their appeals and speed up the execution process? Nearly zero. They prefer long term imprisonment.<BR/> <BR/>This is not, even remotely, in dispute.<BR/> <BR/>Life is preferred over death. Death is feared more than life. <BR/> dudleysharphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12796468204722853648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-85234750362722151232008-05-27T21:19:00.000-05:002008-05-27T21:19:00.000-05:00I think it depends, but there is a reason some peo...I think it depends, but there is a reason some people have chosen death and a reason some have not when they had the option to allow themselves to be executed or to fight for a probably successful delay.Stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00219023897626648057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-55185099828422219302008-05-27T09:24:00.000-05:002008-05-27T09:24:00.000-05:00Sorry, I cant do the fancy bold and italics on my ...Sorry, I cant do the fancy bold and italics on my machine, but I'll try and make it clear which are my words and which are yours.<BR/><BR/>Christoph wrote: " You're right about internet access, although I've since learned that some Texas death row inmates have MySpace pages for them by their friends and family and then people write letters to them.<BR/><BR/>To the best of my knowledge, Texas inmates receive three meals a day, or should. Do you have any proof they don't receive adequate food? If so, address that problem."<BR/><BR/>My reply: Inmates in TDCJ have NO access first hand to the internet, and few have any access to any computers at all. I could make a web site all about my favourite opera singer, but that wouldnt mean they had any control over it, or even have to have any imput.<BR/><BR/>While on lockdown (which can range from a couple of hours to indefinite weeks) inmates are not always given 'adequate' meals, unless you think a cold fried egg and a refried beans burrito 3 times a day constitutes 'adequate'. I dont feel they should have a full 4 course meal with coffee and mints every day, but the food on offer often does not meet government guidelines on salt, fat, sugar or fruit & veg intake. Poor diets create poor health and sickly inmates who you will end up paying more for through your taxes.<BR/><BR/>Christoph wrote: "They have books. Books are better than TV. I don't know how much TV access they have. Nor do I care, except to say that I believe TV for inmates should be quite limited.<BR/><BR/>And no, there's nothing wrong with having penpals. I have several. It's a genuine pleasure and a good growth experience."<BR/><BR/>My reply: You dont know how much TV access they have. I suspect you dont know much about the inner workings of any TDCJ unit. Most, but not all, TDCJ inmates have access to a TV during daytime hours, but usually it is 2 TVs on at the same time showing 2 different things at the whim of the guards. They do not have TV in their cells or dorms (did you know they dont all live in cells?).<BR/><BR/>If there is nothing wrong with having penpals, why lump it in with things you seem to think inmates shouldn't have?<BR/><BR/>Christoph wrote: "It also is not worse than death. That's my point.<BR/><BR/>Question for you: Which is more severe. The DP or LWOP?"<BR/><BR/>My reply: The point I think Grits made in his original blog post is, NO ONE can know for sure what is or isnt worse than death, because no one has come back to tell the tale (unless you believe in spiritualism etc). We can only guess what it might be like, if indeed there is anything at all. So the imposition of the DP or LWOP is only based on a few people's subjective views and nothing more substantial.<BR/><BR/>Christoph wrote: "Follow-up question: Should we be more severe with prisoners or less?<BR/><BR/>Follow-up question: If LWOP is more severe, then would the DP be more humane? Obviously you don't believe this."<BR/><BR/>My reply: If being severe with inmates worked, you wouldnt have growing numbers. Even the threat of death doesnt really deter anyone from committing crimes, so I dont see how it can be a reason to justify worse conditions for inmates. There is little left to take away from inmates and their families, so if you go the whole hog and take away things like visitation, the ability to correspond with the outside world, medical care, education, and the very basic rehab programs that currently exist, and inmates still misbehave, what are you going to do next? Kill them all?<BR/><BR/>As I said in my first post, for some inmates LWOP is a worse situation to contemplate than the DP. For others, death by the state is a worse option. One size does not fit all, no matter how hard we might like it to.<BR/><BR/>Christoph wrote: "If the DP is more severe, then you disagree with Grits, don't you, and you oppose the DP for different reasons, the reasons I cited in that book among others... correct?"<BR/><BR/>You may be surprised to learn that I do not opose the death penalty as a resource. However, I do not agree with the way many US states use it, I do not agree with keeping people on DR for 30+ years in the conditions they are kept in. I do not agree with the state purposefully keeping a terminally ill inmate alive solely for the chance to kill them later on the state's terms. For a country who states very vocally that God is the one who determines life or death, America seems to be full of little Gods.<BR/><BR/>Anyone can use Google. Anyone can regurgitate what they find there. Weren't you ever warned not to believe everything you read? Opinions are better formed by wide range reading and experience.<BR/><BR/>Christoph wrote: "The families suffer as a result of the logical and legal consequences of the criminal's own actions, not because of any wrongful action of the people in seeking justice for a crime."<BR/>I hope you never become an inmate family member. It may surprise you to learn that many inmate families are upstanding members of the community, you probably rub shoulders with some when you go to church or the mall. But you probably dont know it because most know the response they will get if they tell someone. I guess if you think it's ok to punish innocent people and make them feel like criminals too, just for deciding to stand by their family member who is incarcerated, then we're not going to get much further. If that's not how you feel, then please enlighten me.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and it's wench, not wrench.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-13399698324795274352008-05-27T06:47:00.000-05:002008-05-27T06:47:00.000-05:00Sunray's Wrench:"You seem to be under the impressi...Sunray's Wrench:<BR/><BR/><I>"You seem to be under the impression that all murderers are on DR; they are not."</I><BR/><BR/>No, I'm not. I wonder why you missed the term <B>"in some cases"</B> after I not only made an effort to set it aside on its own between commas, but you actually quoted it.<BR/><BR/><I>"You also seem to be ignoring the fact that the families of inmates are innocent, yet you still wish to put them through the distress of losing a loved one at the hands of the state."</I><BR/><BR/>The families suffer as a result of the logical and legal consequences of the criminal's own actions, not because of any wrongful action of the people in seeking justice for a crime.<BR/><BR/>"...it would help your argument a little to do some empirical research instead of relying on one man's book."<BR/><BR/>I formed the reasoning on my own. Then I googled:<BR/><BR/><I>which is more severe death or lwop</I><BR/><BR/>... and lo and behold google not only brought me to that book, it also jumped me to the exact right <I>page</I> of that book. I cited it to be helpful to Grits because not only did it have statistical facts relevant to his views, it also presented a far more logical case against the death penalty than the one he's making here.<BR/><BR/>According to his reasoning, if I'm to take it seriously, he's being more severe than I am and I'm being merciful. There are valid arguments against the death penalty, as I've noted, but not the one he makes. You would agree with that book which was written by a death penalty <I>opponent.</I> Your reasoning is actually closer to his reasoning than Grits'.<BR/><BR/><I><B>"As to your second paragraph, tell me which inmates in Texas have access to the internet?</B> Are you one of those misguided people who believe TX inmates have a TV in their cells and get 3 good meals a day? And exactly what is wrong with having penpals around the world?"</I><BR/><BR/>Thank you for making a good point, which I bolded. You're right about internet access, although I've since learned that some Texas death row inmates have <A HREF="http://www.bloggersblog.com/cgi-bin/bloggersblog.pl?bblog=1114061" REL="nofollow">MySpace</A> pages for them by their friends and family and then people write letters to them.<BR/><BR/>To the best of my knowledge, Texas inmates receive three meals a day, or should. Do you have any proof they don't receive adequate food? If so, address that problem.<BR/><BR/>They have books. Books are better than TV. I don't know how much TV access they have. Nor do I care, except to say that I believe TV for inmates should be quite limited.<BR/><BR/>And no, there's nothing wrong with having penpals. I have several. It's a genuine pleasure and a good growth experience.<BR/><BR/>It <I>also</I> is not worse than death. That's my point.<BR/><BR/>Question for you: Which is more severe. The DP or LWOP?<BR/><BR/>Follow-up question: Should we be more severe with prisoners or less?<BR/><BR/>Follow-up question: If LWOP is more severe, then would the DP be more humane? Obviously you don't believe <I>this</I>.<BR/><BR/>If the DP is more severe, then you disagree with Grits, don't you, and you oppose the DP for different reasons, the reasons I cited in that book among others... correct?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-68737567923248711892008-05-27T00:49:00.000-05:002008-05-27T00:49:00.000-05:00Christoph wrote: "I believe the innocent have a fa...Christoph wrote: "I believe the innocent have a far greater value than the guilty and guilty forfeit much of their value, in some cases, all of their moral value when they commit horrendous crimes.<BR/><BR/>It's this forfeiture of their value which makes punishment just, including the death penalty, or the far, far worse punishment of life with TV, internet, books, steady food, and worldwide penpal opportunities."<BR/><BR/>You seem to be under the impression that all murderers are on DR; they are not. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that the families of inmates are innocent, yet you still wish to put them through the distress of losing a loved one at the hands of the state. Its all very well being philosophical about these things, but it would help your argument a little to do some empirical research instead of relying on one man's book.<BR/><BR/>As to your second paragraph, tell me which inmates in Texas have access to the internet? Are you one of those misguided people who believe TX inmates have a TV in their cells and get 3 good meals a day? And exactly what is wrong with having penpals around the world?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-44710171691532125432008-05-26T17:38:00.000-05:002008-05-26T17:38:00.000-05:00Christoph, how much do I need to pay you for a goo...Christoph, how much do I need to pay you for a good insult?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-79928852519190530872008-05-26T11:37:00.000-05:002008-05-26T11:37:00.000-05:00It is the people who run the prisons that make the...It is the people who run the prisons that make them what they are.<BR/><BR/>The inmates don't have much choice, the Guards, Wardens, State Legislators are the ones that make prisons horrible places.<BR/><BR/>I agree, the culture in prison is terrible, and very little of the blame for that falls upon the inmates. Remember S%^& rolls down hill.<BR/><BR/>I still maintain the DP is harsher because it is a choice that cannot be ammended.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-55139579368145466252008-05-26T11:13:00.000-05:002008-05-26T11:13:00.000-05:00The book I referenced above is"Doing Life" by Howa...The book I referenced above is<BR/>"Doing Life" by Howard Zehr<BR/><BR/>I think it is an important book because some of the prisoners he interviewed were able to do things in prison that were beneficial to society in general. They did in fact rehabilitate themselves.<BR/><BR/>The cruel part was even though they were rehabilitated there was little chance of their sentence being commuted because of the political costs to the governor.<BR/><BR/>Zehr photographed the lifers in civilian clothing instead of prison garb (a huge difference). It would be interesting to see how the voters would react if the presidential candidates wore orange jumpsuits.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-52169908740089951012008-05-26T09:45:00.000-05:002008-05-26T09:45:00.000-05:00I've always wondered about this myself. As someon...I've always wondered about this myself. As someone who has worked in several prisons I tend to think LWP is worse. Prisons are awful places mainly because of the other prisoners and the culture they make. <BR/><BR/>If this is so, then couldn't an argument be made that the DP is more humane than LWP? And therefore, the DP abolitionists very cruel persons indeed?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-44218582817585952922008-05-26T08:29:00.000-05:002008-05-26T08:29:00.000-05:00Put simpler, my criticism is of God (ordering rape...Put simpler, my criticism is of <B>God</B> (ordering rapes, mass murder, and child slavery), <B>Jesus</B> (threatening lifelong torture if I don't believe in Him and I haven't even had the benefit of seeing an actual bona fide miracle, just unlikely hearsay), and for that matter the <B>Holy Spirit</B> (killing all innocent first born male children because of what their dictator allegedly wouldn't do) as <I>depicted in the Bible,</I> not of Mrs. Clarkson at church.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-69928485388763357342008-05-26T08:23:00.000-05:002008-05-26T08:23:00.000-05:00"In other words, it's true because it's true."Nons...<I>"In other words, it's true because it's true."</I><BR/><BR/>Nonsense, Grits. Robbie C. explained much of the evidence for it and Bedauhas took that in more detail and added other points. You know darn well I and others have made many of these points. Mark Bennet explained the why of it.<BR/><BR/>I don't have a majority rules on moral position argument (although it tends to when the law is set). I agreed with you when you challenged that idea. I have no idea where you're getting from.<BR/><BR/>We're talking about SEVERITY of punishment. If most people convicted of a crime prefer punishment x over punishment y, then it seems logical to presume that punishment y is more severe, at least from their perception point of view. And that's valuable data. Bedauhas gives other reasons aside from this important one.<BR/><BR/>Further, I don't have disdain for religious people. I love very many religious people (and dislike many atheists). I have disdain for <I>religion.</I> There is a difference.<BR/><BR/>To me, it's like a superstition. Most people have had at least some superstitions, yours truly included. I think superstitions are dumb, but don't dislike everyone who has one. Also, many people are religious and I think they're reasoning here is highly flawed, assuming they've actually read all of their religious scriptures, which most haven't.<BR/><BR/>Yet, they can be highly intelligent generals, doctors, lawyers, accountants, moms, coaches, or what have you. I've made this point before on these threads. If you missed it, there it is. Again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-10152541612372023032008-05-26T08:22:00.000-05:002008-05-26T08:22:00.000-05:00Grits, I thought your post was really interesting....Grits, I thought your post was really interesting. I remember being struck by an inmate's comment in the NY Times article on the "wave" of execution dates following the SC's ruling on lethal injections (I blogged about on the article and I think you did too): he said that LWOP was torture and far worse than the DP.<BR/><BR/>I think it's impossible to decide the question based on the inmate because it's going to depend on each inmate's circumstances. For one inmate, he may know that his case has some good facts and there is a chance that he could have his case retried and maybe even get out. For another, the facts are terrible and he may have nothing to look forward to even if he did get out, so he'd rather just get life over with.<BR/><BR/>I think the question, rather than which is worse, is what do we as a society believe to be right. Do we ultimately believe that the government should have the power to kill its citizens?<BR/><BR/>In any case, sooner or later the Sup Ct will decide it for us as the number of states outlawing the DP reaches a critical mass. Sorry, Texas, I think your days of the DP are numbered.ms_saulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18217740368113221289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-45532925351290534092008-05-26T08:13:00.000-05:002008-05-26T08:13:00.000-05:00Christoph, your position is summed up with this st...Christoph, your position is summed up with this statement: "Death is more severe than life. I'd think that is axiomatic"<BR/><BR/>In other words, it's true because it's true. That's not an axiom, it's a tautology. Here are some stats on rates of <A HREF="http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070807/28801_Survey:_How_50%2B_Americans_View_Afterlife.htm" REL="nofollow">belief in the afterlife</A>. By your majority rules on moral questions argument, you are wrong. (Of course it's your "majority" argument that's wrong; no one can now whether there's an afterlife, even you.)<BR/><BR/>Also, I didn't stake out a position or a "strategy," I posed a question and asked people for their reasoning. And you gave me your answer: It's true because it's true, and people who disagree with you are wrong.<BR/><BR/>And to the troll (3 posts in 5 minutes?) who thinks he knows my father's mind, my Dad believes in the afterlife, as do <A HREF="http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070807/28801_Survey:_How_50%2B_Americans_View_Afterlife.htm" REL="nofollow">most Americans his age</A>. I'm willing to bet he wouldn't find the premise of the question nearly as off the charts as somebody like you or Christoph who appear to have nothing but disdain for religious people.Gritsforbreakfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-21216983459810156992008-05-26T07:54:00.000-05:002008-05-26T07:54:00.000-05:00"The question is a moral one, Chrisoph. You cannot...<I>"The question is a moral one, Chrisoph. You cannot answer how many angels dance on the head of a pin by majority rule."</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, quite. So buy Bedauhas's book. He approaches the death penalty from a moral perspective and, using reasoning I can't fault in the main, argues against it.<BR/><BR/>The reason he reaches a different conclusion than me is because he has a different set of values than I do. He basically believes all life has great value, even people who've done terrible things. I believe the innocent have a far greater value than the guilty and guilty forfeit much of their value, in some cases, all of their moral value when they commit horrendous crimes.<BR/><BR/>It's this forfeiture of their value which makes punishment just, including the death penalty, or the far, far worse punishment of life with TV, internet, books, steady food, and worldwide penpal opportunities.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure what your moral point <I>is</I>. I understand Bedauhas's point as he believes punishment for the sake of punishment is gratuitous whereas I believe it's just and virtuous: at least we're agreeing largely on facts and reason and arguing the actual morality.<BR/><BR/>You believe, don't you, that LWOP is a more severe punishment than death? Then surely if you <I>actually</I> believe that, then, logically, you believe death is a less severe punishment than LWOP.<BR/><BR/>a > b → b < a<BR/><BR/>So, if I buy your contention, can we use LWOP for the really SERIOUS murders and, to show our mercy, use death where the murder is less serious, their were mitigating factors, and/or genuine remorse?<BR/><BR/>Because if not, I'm going to say you're not being intellectually consistent nor intellectually honest (with yourself).<BR/><BR/>Your views are actually closer to Bedauhas's, but instead of using his rational arguments and the conclusions that flow from them, you're using the ridiculous position of LWOP being more severe than death, which it isn't.<BR/><BR/>If it were, you would have no problem with having it in the sentencing continuum, at least in theory.<BR/><BR/>Yes, there are valid arguments against it, like wrongful convictions. I wish you'd use those and not the ones which make no sense, but are used by modern liberals who devalue language and make it mean what it doesn't mean.<BR/><BR/>Death is more severe than life. I'd think that is axiomatic.<BR/><BR/><I>"Our society is incredibly narcissistic, and the fact that most people choose a known (life) that panders to their narcissism over an unknown that they (perhaps irrationally) fear does not mean that their assessment of which is 'worse' is accurate."</I><BR/><BR/>So... basically... your strategy is to punish convicted murderers with the more "severe" sentence of LWOP <B>by indulging their narcissism</B> and their <I>false</I> belief that death is worse?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-74094272438820508062008-05-26T07:47:00.000-05:002008-05-26T07:47:00.000-05:00Grits, I bet your lawyer father reads this tripe a...Grits, I bet your lawyer father reads this tripe and shakes his head in shame.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-71179102558783069792008-05-26T07:46:00.000-05:002008-05-26T07:46:00.000-05:00As a society, we have got to do something to get t...As a society, we have got to do something to get the suicide rate on LWOP raised to at least 75%.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com