tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post7439215627431514748..comments2024-03-25T20:06:39.794-05:00Comments on Grits for Breakfast: Lawsuit filed to stop TYC pepper spray policy; Blue Ribbon report now onlineGritsforbreakfasthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-23042853261435998462007-09-15T20:54:00.000-05:002007-09-15T20:54:00.000-05:00I hope so! Old SaltyI hope so! Old SaltyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-2084803170526315812007-09-15T20:42:00.000-05:002007-09-15T20:42:00.000-05:00Old Salty,From what I have heard, I anticipate tha...Old Salty,<BR/><BR/>From what I have heard, I anticipate that is what is going to happen.<BR/><BR/>Howard A. HickmanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-73705124493442143972007-09-15T17:58:00.000-05:002007-09-15T17:58:00.000-05:00Howard,As a lawyer, what do you think of the chanc...Howard,<BR/>As a lawyer, what do you think of the chances of a class action suit forcing Texas to really deal with the problems we are seeing? Old SaltyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-25277172664742916442007-09-15T11:39:00.000-05:002007-09-15T11:39:00.000-05:0014/9/07 10:15 AM: Can you tell us anymore about th...14/9/07 10:15 AM: Can you tell us anymore about this, or can anyone confirm it?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12916643458328253523noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-1643355066496055662007-09-15T10:06:00.000-05:002007-09-15T10:06:00.000-05:00I agree with both Howard and Old Salty that the po...I agree with both Howard and Old Salty that the political atmosphere presents an obstacle to reform.<BR/><BR/>But I guess my frustration with comments like those from Reps Madden and Whitmire stems from what I see as their lack of leadership.<BR/><BR/>IMO, "leadership," a much overused word, means leading public opinion, not just following it. Instead we are given a completely unimaginative repeat of past mistakes, dressed up as "pragmatism."<BR/><BR/>For their part, the reformers would be well served to make a case based on fiscal conservatism. That is how the Missouri model gained support from prominent conservatives in that state, including former Governor John Ashcroft. It won over small government conservatives by reducing the size of the state's bureaucracy, the immediate cost of operating juvenile justice, and the long-term costs of high recidivism.<BR/><BR/>They managed to devise a system that was both progressive and less expensive, in both the long and short run. Politically, that's clearly the only way real reform is going to play in Texas.<BR/><BR/>These elements are in the blue ribbon report, but not featured as prominently as they could be.<BR/><BR/>It just isn't constructive in any way for pols to blow off the report recommendations because its proposal for a rehab program to replace resocialization is too demanding. However, I do think it's fair to fault it for not giving enough attention to the transitional period between the current program and their proposed one, which is very different.<BR/><BR/>Still would like to hear what TYC people think about specific features of the report...<BR/><BR/>Bill BushAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-41043506022147371442007-09-14T23:20:00.000-05:002007-09-14T23:20:00.000-05:00Howard, you and I agree on this one. I do not see...Howard, you and I agree on this one. I do not see any way that significant changes will be made without a court order. Rep Madden plainly stated the political realities. The political atmosphere of Texas is not conducive to making the changes that need to be made. It goes deep. We cannot deal with the numbers of youth that are now in the system without a significant influx of money. The guv is not about to call the lege back into session to do that. There is no short-term fix on the horizon. Old SaltyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-42824548706575940762007-09-14T22:41:00.000-05:002007-09-14T22:41:00.000-05:00I agree with Howard in the sense that TYC does nee...I agree with Howard in the sense that TYC does need a new leader at the top. I am not stating or making any comments about the current leader Ms. Pope but after the takeover and the booting of Dwight Harris she has become the rebound after you lost your boyfriend/girlfriend and it is time to choose a leader with Juvenile Justice experience who would be willing to take on the challenge. And if they had this experience I do believe they would step up to the plate based upon their beliefs that Juveniles can be rehabilitated and need a second chance. Just my humble opinion without throwing stones are making accusations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-55851285420251581732007-09-14T22:10:00.000-05:002007-09-14T22:10:00.000-05:00Good thought Howard. Let me see; where could I fin...Good thought Howard. Let me see; where could I find someone with the expertise to take the position for the pay offered?<BR/><BR/>A better question; What qualified person, being of sound mind, would want the position?<BR/><BR/>It is obvious the position would not receive proper backing /funding from the lege. How many months have gone by AFTER the problems were identified?<BR/><BR/>How are the facilties being operated today vs. prior to the Lege "helping them out"?<BR/><BR/>Yes; let's get the feds involved; appoint another Special Master, let the State pay all that money to the Special Master and his assistants. In about ten years TYC will be operating as effectively as TDCJ. Please!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-81742193805369647122007-09-14T20:36:00.000-05:002007-09-14T20:36:00.000-05:00Grits,My understanding was that shortly after the ...Grits,<BR/><BR/>My understanding was that shortly after the Blue Ribbon Panel began its first meeting control of the agenda was lost. I believe Owens was just trying to put the best face on a landslide that was out of control by embracing the rumble in the hope that he would not get buried and possibly reshape the report, which like many decisions of the reform administrators just backfired.<BR/><BR/>I am not against reforming the juvenile justice system or discussing what needs to be done. However I am more concerned with the need to direct energies for a temporary fix of TYC so that we do not loose the youth currently in TYC. <BR/><BR/>I have believed ever since I left TYC that the only practical method for reform in this political climate is for a court takeover since there seems to be no effort to appoint an executive commissioner with juvenile justice expertise.<BR/><BR/>Howard A. HickmanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-57763298709487061192007-09-14T20:04:00.000-05:002007-09-14T20:04:00.000-05:00Please excuse my constant typos. Old SaltyPlease excuse my constant typos. Old SaltyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-17134037485111017482007-09-14T20:02:00.000-05:002007-09-14T20:02:00.000-05:00That report spoke the truth. But, I fear, Rep Mad...That report spoke the truth. But, I fear, Rep Madden spoke the truth as well. He was not opposed to the findings, he said just pointed out the political realities of Texas. True changes will not be self-generated. As Dr. Bush has documentent, we keep making the same mistakes over and over. I believe that any real changes real only come about as a result of a court order. Old SaltyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-2259598983917207012007-09-14T18:44:00.000-05:002007-09-14T18:44:00.000-05:00Stop calling it mace! It's oleoresin capsicum, OC...Stop calling it mace! It's oleoresin capsicum, OC, pepper spray! <BR/><BR/>And I truly believe that eventually, enough kids will suffer at the hands of these incompetent, bumbling ex-TDCJ idiots that the courts or the Feds won't have any choice but to intervene.<BR/><BR/>As for re-doing Resocialization, has anyone noticed that the Transitional Treatment Program still refers youth to specific pages for exercises in the Resocialization workbooks that need to be completed, which, by the way, were ordered destroyed by Central Office.<BR/><BR/>If TYC was a crowbar, these TDCJ boneheads would find a way to f#*k it up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-20989552255618026692007-09-14T18:03:00.000-05:002007-09-14T18:03:00.000-05:00Howard, I remember that too. But FWIW the report i...Howard, I remember that too. But FWIW the report itself says they changed its focus with admin's blessing, specifically naming Ed Owens. <BR/><BR/>Of course, that begs the question why TYC then waited to replace resocialization until the BRP report came out, if they knew it wouldn't be that specific.<BR/><BR/>It's all just awkward and clumsy, isn't it?<BR/><BR/>I predict the lawsuit will successfully knock down the OC policy, they'll try to do it again the right way, then more litigation will ensue that could even re-open Morales v. Turman.<BR/><BR/>If that happens, maybe the Blue Ribbon Panel report down the line can serve as a framework for what some judge orders, since it looks like nobody wants to fix the agency in the here and now beyond stocking up on mace.Gritsforbreakfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-73973357097227011252007-09-14T17:51:00.000-05:002007-09-14T17:51:00.000-05:00Bill, I must disagree with your characterization o...Bill, I must disagree with your characterization of what TYC asked for. I was there at the time and the orignal request was to redo Resocialization. As I recall that is what we put in the consultant agreements.<BR/><BR/>Howard A. HickmanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-10639786632516996612007-09-14T16:37:00.000-05:002007-09-14T16:37:00.000-05:00Grits,Just finished reading the Blue Ribbon report...Grits,<BR/><BR/>Just finished reading the Blue Ribbon report.<BR/><BR/>My initial response is that I'm impressed with what they were able to put together on such a short timetable.<BR/><BR/>TYC and the lege are already trying to downgrade this report as "pie in the sky" dreaming by ivory tower academics disconnected from reality. IMO, this is either a sloppy mischaracterization or, worse, a blatantly dishonest characterization intended to undercut the report's authority and to distract attention away from its actual content.<BR/><BR/>Honestly, I question whether some of these people have actually read it beyond the executive summaries. Let's argue about it openly here, pick out the good and the bad. But let's not just dismiss it out of hand, as TYC and Rep Madden seem to wish, because it doesn't give us a magic bullet.<BR/><BR/>I found the report to be extremely thorough. It drew careful comparisons with other states, including Missouri, Illinois, and California, suggesting lessons Texas could learn from them while also noting that some practices will be less applicable due to different offender populations. <BR/><BR/>The report backs up virtually all of its claims and suggestions with a wealth of empirical evidence, belying the "unrealistic" label of its detractors.<BR/><BR/>The report is also comprehensive in that it addresses each stage of the juvenile justice process. The "continuum of care" model it offers is, IMO, not only appropriate (and probably cheaper in the long run) but also very similar to proposals knocked down by spendthrift leges of the past.<BR/><BR/>My sense also is that it differs in some key ways with Resocialization, but I'll defer to expert practitioners like Old Salty on that score.<BR/><BR/>However, I'm going to disagree respectfully with those who feel that this report wasn't what TYC asked for. The panel was charged with finding solutions to TYC's problems, specifically those that led to abuse of inmates.<BR/><BR/>It seems clear that the panel began looking at TYC as it was and realized that cosmetic changes would not suffice. The report states that TYC's problems aren't in execution, they're structural and conceptual and require major changes. And then the report spells out in fairly precise detail what those changes should include. Pretty good for having met only 2 days.<BR/><BR/>If TYC and the lege want to wait for a massive lawsuit or, worse, another abuse scandal, or maybe federal intervention under the next presidential administration, they will ignore this report.<BR/><BR/>The problems addressed in this report didn't form overnight and won't go away quickly either.<BR/><BR/>It continues to just astound me the degree to which history repeats itself with TYC.<BR/><BR/>Bill BushAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-22085462421119491712007-09-14T14:19:00.000-05:002007-09-14T14:19:00.000-05:00Would someone elaborate on what anon. 10:15 is tal...Would someone elaborate on what anon. 10:15 is talking about?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-73294314566233973572007-09-14T12:18:00.000-05:002007-09-14T12:18:00.000-05:00Hi Everyone: As a member of the Blue Ribbon Task F...Hi Everyone: As a member of the Blue Ribbon Task Force, it is encouraging to see that y'all are interested in our report and the strategic, sound, sensible, and cost-effective recommendations that we offered.<BR/><BR/>It is clear, however, that any reform of TYC speficially and juvenile justice in Texas more broadly must be spearheaded by the citizens and the active watch groups. The politicians will not make the necessary changes to the law and/or insist on policy changes unless the public makes them address the deficiencies in how Texas does business with delinquent children.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-86621792690957258452007-09-14T10:15:00.000-05:002007-09-14T10:15:00.000-05:00Just wehen I thought they couldn't take anything e...Just wehen I thought they couldn't take anything else away, has anyone else seen the e-mail floating that all of the budgeted money for all youth privileges has been suspended? It may not have been much but at least is was a tool for us to gain compliance in some cases. The entire privilege system was called officially "dead" on Monday.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-76106190466233312432007-09-14T07:37:00.000-05:002007-09-14T07:37:00.000-05:00I'm sure that support for widespread use is due to...I'm sure that support for widespread use is due to false associations. We know about violent people with bad attitudes who plague police and the public. But not every one who taunts police and has a bad attitude about their sorry lying butts is violent. People like yours truly and my neighbor have a history of taunting police about their misconduct and neither one of us is violent. We just don't like their games, subterfuge and outright dishonesty - encouraging by Hollywood values.<BR/> It's these false associations that justify abuses on our streets and the streets in the Middle East. Not everyone who despises our government is out to kill and maim others. But no one would know that by the reports of our media lapdogs.JT Barriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15571868033521182864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-41896946660553019312007-09-13T23:26:00.000-05:002007-09-13T23:26:00.000-05:00Texans with a "lock em up and teach em a lesson" m...Texans with a "lock em up and teach em a lesson" mentality need to have a better understanding of the cost.<BR/><BR/>It is economically more efficient to teach a man to fish than it is to give him a fish. If a man knows how to fish, he can eat for life, if he is given a fish, he can eat only once.<BR/><BR/>Youth that violate the law need far more than to be "locked up with bad food and a hard bed". These human beings need to be learn how to live successfully in society without breaking the law.<BR/><BR/>Why can't Whitmire understand that doing the right thing will save money for the State of Texas in the long run? I'd be inclined to vote for someone else!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-2559583141825930022007-09-13T23:11:00.000-05:002007-09-13T23:11:00.000-05:00Sorry, I am new to this. Who is Elmer? Thanks!Sorry, I am new to this. Who is Elmer? <BR/>Thanks!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-4425480433704777812007-09-13T22:25:00.000-05:002007-09-13T22:25:00.000-05:00Juvenile Justice advocates in Texas have to learn ...Juvenile Justice advocates in Texas have to learn to temper their ideas for reform and package them in a such a way that the proincarceration mentality will allow itself to chew on it awhile before spitting it out. While the Blue Ribbon Panel makes perfect sense, in the Texas environment, it is sure to continue to receive an instant gag response( i.e. Madden), despite clear efforts to emphasize the fiscally conservative realities of juvenile justice reform.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-42168853410671395732007-09-13T21:38:00.000-05:002007-09-13T21:38:00.000-05:00Hey 4:52 p.m., not to worry, Elmer will protect th...Hey 4:52 p.m., not to worry, Elmer will protect them!! Crawfish or not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-24585645641739904102007-09-13T21:13:00.000-05:002007-09-13T21:13:00.000-05:00No worries. Here's the link to the Blue Ribbon rep...No worries. Here's the link to the <A HREF="http://alt.coxnewsweb.com/statesman/pdf/09/091407_pepperspray_report.pdf" REL="nofollow">Blue Ribbon report</A>. It's also in the post.Gritsforbreakfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-84596677743018239482007-09-13T21:09:00.000-05:002007-09-13T21:09:00.000-05:00Bob Dylan says,I know when I start drinking vodka ...Bob Dylan says,<BR/><BR/>I know when I start drinking vodka (started when tyc became TDCJ) I get mad, real mad and come in here and type on grits. hell, they are probably tracking all of this anyway, so i am pretty much screwed out of a job for that reason alone. rational does not work. sorry for the mispelled words in my previous post. kind of loose my poise after a shot of vodka and when i am really mad.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com