tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post3224010455509535526..comments2024-03-25T20:06:39.794-05:00Comments on Grits for Breakfast: False arrests for DWI in Austin highlighted by bust of talk-show hostGritsforbreakfasthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-44310134939983047082015-07-20T23:33:21.719-05:002015-07-20T23:33:21.719-05:00And a judge should be the one that makes the call ...And a judge should be the one that makes the call to violate another human being by puncturing thier skin?Who made them God?Nobody has the right to inflict pain on others!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-1646098711915934582015-07-20T23:17:51.184-05:002015-07-20T23:17:51.184-05:00Well mr. officer... i myself have been wrongfully ...Well mr. officer... i myself have been wrongfully arrested for dwi,and did beat the case.i took the dwi taskforce officer's field sobriety tests.I was outraged that after preforming well on all the ridiculous things he had me do,he then took his pen out had me follow it with my eyes.Well this makes perfect sense,the dashcam can't see my eyes so then it's left up to the cop to make the call.hmmmm..wonder why that test was made up?To help bring in revenue! When i reached the station they drew my blood wich is a violation of human rights,no person should be allowed to stab another with a needle without consent.If iI did that it would be considered assult with a weapon.Needless to say ..One terrible night in jail,$5,000 attorney fee,and a very unhappy employer later,the so called justice system found out my BAC was .04 and the case was dismissed.So you keep on arresting citizens for crimes we don't commit. MR STORMTROOPER! Remember, this country has revolted before,and the police are America's #1 cause for the next one.Tell me if that shiny badge protects you then.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-35279942075194270172012-01-13T17:43:53.477-06:002012-01-13T17:43:53.477-06:00OK, this is being written WAY after the orignal bl...OK, this is being written WAY after the orignal blog topic, but people here have asked for hard evidence that HGN is junk science. Here's your hard evidence:<br /><br />It is beyond scientific dispute that HGN (Horizontal Gaze Nystagmus, aka "jerking eyes") can be caused by the ingestion of alcohol. This is as advertised by NHTSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration). The problem is that the eyes are TOO sensitive to alcohol - so much so that people exhibit HGN signs at levels less than 0.04 - half of the legal limit.<br /><br />So anyone stating that HGN "proves" or establishes intoxication is flat wrong. HGN really only proves that a person has consumed "some" alcohol, which is roughly the same information one can gather by smelling the person's breath.<br /><br />The proof for this is contained in NHTSA's own publications. To see this proof, Google NHTSA, then search the NHTSA site for their "HGN Robustness Study". Then closely review the raw data contained in the Robustness study, especially Tables 10, 13, and 15.<br /><br />NHTSA instructs police officers nationwide that persons with "4 or more" clues on HGN are intoxicated. And police officers repeat that drivel to jurors. But look at the raw data:<br /><br />Table 10 shows the results of 36 different HGN tests. 26 of these tests were done on individuals with BAC levels under the 0.08 legal limit. Of those 26 tests, 21people exhibited "4 or more" clues. NHTSA says 4 or more clues means a person is intoxicated. That would be an 81% false arrest rate based upon HGN results.<br /><br />Table 13 shows 36 more HGN tests. 24 of those were done on people with BACs under the legal limit of 0.08 BAC. Of those 24 tests, 13 exhibited "4 or more" clues. That would be a 54% false arrest rate based upon those HGN results.<br /><br />Table 15 shows 36 more HGN tests. 27 of these were done on people having BACs under 0.08. Of these 27, 19 had "4 or more" clues. That would be a 70% false arrest rate bsed upon HGN results. (The bottom line of Table 15 contains a typo as to the BAC, which should be less than 0.05, not 0.12, which can be determined if you study the table closely).<br /><br />Of these 77 HGN tests on people having BACs less than the legal limit, 69% of them - 53 - would be falsely arrested based upon HGN results. NHTSA's own published study shows this to be a fact.<br /><br />Flipping a coin would only result in a 50% false arrest rate. HGN is a 19 percent LESS accurate than flipping a coin.<br /><br />The NHTSA Robustness study shows all of the following:<br /><br />A person at 0.029 having 6 clues<br />A person at 0.036 having 6 clues<br />A person at 0.045 having 6 clues<br />A person at 0.022 having 4 clues<br />A person at 0.027 having 4 clues<br />A person at 0.019 having 4 clues<br />A person at 0.045 having 6 clues<br />A person at 0.016 having 4 clues<br /><br />All of these innocent people would be arrested based upon the HGN test, for having "4 or more clues." <br /><br />Yet NHTSA continues to shovel this junk science down the throats of unsuspecting jurors and motorists. <br /><br />My conclusion is that law enforcement in general doesn't give a damn about arresting "innocent" (i.e. - drinking, but not intoxicated) drivers, in their never ending quest to get all of the intoxicated drivers off the roadways.<br /><br />In Vietnam, it was nearly impossible to distinguish the good Vietnamese from the bad Vietnamese. They all looked the same. The frustrated military came up with an answer: "Shoot 'em all, let God sort 'em out..."John Gioffredinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-7559588718131031572011-06-21T19:40:56.504-05:002011-06-21T19:40:56.504-05:00Jeff,
I am glad that you are not slamming the arre...Jeff,<br />I am glad that you are not slamming the arresting officer. I don't know how many clues he observed during the HGN test, but I observed the minimum number of clues during both the Walk and Turn and the One Leg Stand test to believe that you were intoxicated. The officer did the job that he is tasked with doing. In fact, where I am at, I believe that our local judge would find enough probable cause to issue a search warrant for a blood specimen and then we would all know what your BAC was at. If it turned out to be well below the primal facial BAC level, then good for you, but the officer was professional throughout the contact and I believe he made the correct decision to place you under arrest for DWI. <br />I also don't have a problem with the dismissal of the case, because that is the job of the prosecutor to determine if they believe they have enough evidence to convict, which is a higher level of proof required than the probable cause needed to affect a lawful arrest. The video became too stop and go for me to hear and observe the video after the SFST, but the officer did a fine job. I hate that you had to experience it, as I am an avid listener and enjoy your program, but it doesn't change the events of that night.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-13923637500551564882011-06-21T19:25:36.170-05:002011-06-21T19:25:36.170-05:00The definition of intoxicated in Texas is two-fold...The definition of intoxicated in Texas is two-fold, either having a BAC of 0.08% or higher OR not having normal use of ones normal mental and or physical faculties due to the introduction of any substance into the body. <br />I know an individual that would have a BAC of 0.020, but because she seldom consumes alcohol, she would be clearly intoxicated. She would be what would be called a video drunk due to the lack of normal mental and physical faculties. If she was to be driving, after half of one wine cooler, she would not be able to safely drive and would either end up in a head on crash or would run off the road. She know better than to drink and drive at all, but just because someone is tested below 0.08% BAC does not mean that they are not intoxicated.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-77600331904849378652011-06-21T19:16:21.169-05:002011-06-21T19:16:21.169-05:00The problem with the HGN is not that the officer s...The problem with the HGN is not that the officer saw more clues than were present, but more than likely saw less clues than what was actually there, resulting in the actually clues being counted were less than what the suspect actually displayed. That is were the unreliability is, and as a result, the error is on the side of the offender.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-31784379248515992322011-06-21T12:17:02.482-05:002011-06-21T12:17:02.482-05:00Right on, Scott!Right on, Scott!Donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16902834245861000386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-52203281755542677582011-06-21T07:23:23.170-05:002011-06-21T07:23:23.170-05:00Anon 11:01, you're quite the one-trick pony, a...Anon 11:01, you're quite the one-trick pony, aren't you? We get the same snide, line from you with the same cowardly hiding behind anonymity no matter what the topic. It's hard to imagine you're not as bored with it by now as I am. If you have nothing to contribute to the conversation but a contemptuous sneer, why do you even read this blog?Gritsforbreakfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-18087353051401000242011-06-20T23:01:09.311-05:002011-06-20T23:01:09.311-05:00Its no big deal to drink and drive. Its no big dea...Its no big deal to drink and drive. Its no big deal to text while driving. If they drink, text and drive at the same time that might be even better.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-62733718314522842562011-06-19T19:08:00.870-05:002011-06-19T19:08:00.870-05:00I have long admonished people that if you get stop...I have long admonished people that if you get stopped and a cop smells alcohol on your breath (or if you admit you had even one drink) whether you are legally intoxicated or not, you are going to be arrested. There is absolutely no negative consequence whatsoever to an officer for arresting someone who is not intoxicated. It is an outrage, and it happens all the time.Texas Lawyerhttp://www.texascrimelawyer.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-63618916659924436772011-06-19T10:57:23.837-05:002011-06-19T10:57:23.837-05:008:32 I don't think anybody said blood draws WI...8:32 I don't think anybody said blood draws WITH A WARRANT are a constitutional violation. However, making false arrests doesn't do anything to reduce the problem, either, does it?Gritsforbreakfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-39277734842513847532011-06-19T10:51:23.280-05:002011-06-19T10:51:23.280-05:00You know what may help? Eliminating the city'...You know what may help? Eliminating the city's ridiculous restrictions that reduce the number of cabs, reduces the number of people that can ride in a cab, and thereby increase the fares people have to pay. But that would require people in government to admit that their meddling causes unintended consequences that create way more problems than they solve.AdamJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-64556631822302964192011-06-19T09:46:26.280-05:002011-06-19T09:46:26.280-05:00Getting a warrant to draw blood isn't unconsti...Getting a warrant to draw blood isn't unconstitutional. It sucks for everyone involved but is not unconstitutional. Its just like if a person is pulled over and refuses to let the officer search the vehicle and the officer goes and gets a warrant. Same thing with blood draw. If person refuses, get a warrant. If Judge refuses to sign warrant, let the driver go.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-73536950128686495262011-06-19T09:36:37.165-05:002011-06-19T09:36:37.165-05:00We have the legal limit so low that it is hard to ...We have the legal limit so low that it is hard to know what to do if you are pulled over even after a couple of drinks. It is now perfectly legal to text and drive so we will have plenty of accidents for the officer to investigate. We will likely have some statistics on the "texting" accidents because phone records may be able to be retrieved.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-11483737033215169662011-06-19T08:32:53.742-05:002011-06-19T08:32:53.742-05:00I'm the anon who asked about the HGN, thanks f...I'm the anon who asked about the HGN, thanks for the response. <br /><br />I do have another question for those of you who oppose the tests, the HGN, and think blood draws are a constitutional violation. And, again, this is a serious question, I'm not trying to be argumentative.<br /><br />If the tests are useless, HGN is junk, and law enforcement can't draw blood with a warrant, do we just not bother trying to catch drunk drivers?<br /><br />I see a whole lot of criticism but not many solutions being offered. What would you actually do? Or do you think DWI isn't a problem that needs dealing with through criminal penalties?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-36165718945327620512011-06-18T16:00:07.084-05:002011-06-18T16:00:07.084-05:00"can you provide some evidence that HGN is &#..."can you provide some evidence that HGN is 'junk science'?" <br /><br />I based that comment on a discussion at the Texas Forensic Science Seminar last year sponsored by the Court of Criminal Appeals Criminal Justice Integrity Unit, where Dr. Joe Bono, President of the American Academy of Forensic Science said he didn't believe HGN qualified as "science." The tactic supposedly has up to a 40% error rate. A DPS trooper who gave a training on the subject said he thought it was more reliable than that, but granted that many officers who use the technique aren't properly trained and it's often not applied correctly.Gritsforbreakfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-53066850254210994372011-06-18T14:40:44.036-05:002011-06-18T14:40:44.036-05:00DWI is a serious public safety issue. However, I ...DWI is a serious public safety issue. However, I agree don't take breath test. I also agree HGN is a joke as well as the rest of the SFST. I also think many Texas communities operate as a "police state". If you want to know if the driver is intoxicated, take a blood sample. If you have to get a warrant to take the blood, do it. If you can't find a Judge willing to sign the warrant, then the Judges in that community are lazy. DWI will always be prevalent. Too easy to get a DWI. After all, alcohol, ice, and coolers are virtually always sold at the same place people purchase gasoline. Most bars aren't in walking distance, you have to drive to get there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-23965954038273873002011-06-18T13:54:43.723-05:002011-06-18T13:54:43.723-05:00I meant "don't have to worry about a brea...I meant "don't have to worry about a breath test refusal."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-21997581736202290432011-06-18T13:51:56.009-05:002011-06-18T13:51:56.009-05:00No problem, Grits. In many Texas counties these da...No problem, Grits. In many Texas counties these days, if you get stopped smelling of alcohol and refuse the field sobriety tests (in and of itself legally admissible evidence of intoxication), they'll just get a search warrant for your blood. It's more reliable than the intoxilyzer anyhow and you have to worry about a breath test refusal. Those blood test results are hard to argue with and are just as effective in clearing the innocent as establishing guilt.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-78297343926331250182011-06-18T12:43:33.479-05:002011-06-18T12:43:33.479-05:00So juries in TC demand a higher burden to convict ...So juries in TC demand a higher burden to convict is reason for the cops to arrest a twice the rate?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-5550615564049947742011-06-18T12:40:44.675-05:002011-06-18T12:40:44.675-05:00There is a really big problem with this tactic, an...There is a really big problem with this tactic, and with all zero tolerance programs: while the officer is fiddling with the innocent 1 drink driver, there are hundreds of professional drunk drivers on the streets of their city. These everyday drunks drivers are really good at sliding by, but ever now and the one slips up and kills someone. All the officers are tied up with processing the feel-good, get'em all off the road, not-really drink driver.<br />It's all a numbers game for the Police Chief to look good, without really making any impact on the real problem. In theory, his plan of arresting zero tolerance, is going to get more folks killed, because precious manpower is waste on the non-drunk, while the pro-drunk is not being looked for.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-71168867343864049652011-06-18T09:51:35.692-05:002011-06-18T09:51:35.692-05:00Grits, can you provide some evidence that HGN is &...Grits, can you provide some evidence that HGN is "junk science"? Not doubting you, necessarily, I'd just like to see what you're basing that on.<br /><br />I work in the system and there is another explanation for TC being an outlier. Juries in TC have a standard of proof higher than anywhere else, so prosecutor know that without SFSTs on tape, or blood or breath, they can't convict. Whereas a jury in Williamson County might convict on the word of the arresting officer, TC juries won't. I'd bet good money that's a major reason.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-15878104832481670862011-06-18T07:22:23.339-05:002011-06-18T07:22:23.339-05:00BTW, I should add I mostly don't think it'...BTW, I should add I mostly don't think it's individual officers to blame for this, though clearly the cop at 11:13 admitted he's willing to make arrests based on politics and personal bias. But it's obvious from Acevedo's statements this is a management decision at APD to maximize DWI arrests, whether the driver is visibly impaired or not, just like it's a management decision to expend extra resources trolling for DWIs while understaffing investigations for car and home <a href="http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2011/04/austin-clearance-rates-for-burglary.html" rel="nofollow">burglaries</a> and wasting 12% of police calls on <a href="http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2011/05/austin-will-raise-taxes-to-hire-more.html" rel="nofollow">false burglar alarms</a>. Managers make choices and the choices made by APD management have resulted in too many false DWI arrests and extremely low clearance rates for car and home burglaries compared to the rest of the state. I don't believe those choices make the puclic safer. There are <a href="http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2010/09/why-so-few-dwis-in-berlin-public.html" rel="nofollow">more productive ways</a> to reduce DWI that don't have the same opportunity costs.Gritsforbreakfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-13423958630750292722011-06-18T06:38:45.294-05:002011-06-18T06:38:45.294-05:0011:13, I wouldn't take your damn tests stone c...11:13, I wouldn't take your damn tests stone cold sober. The HGN is junk science and my knees are so bad (one dislocated three times, the other once) I don't think whether or not I can balance on one foot, etc., is particularly probative, either. The 5th Amdt to the US Constitution says it's not my job to provide you evidence against me on demand, sorry. Blaming the defense lawyer is BS: You're the one making false arrests based on (according to you) political pressure and personal bias.<br /><br />How is it that Travis County is the outlier here? TC citizens are arrested at TWICE the rate as other large TX jurisdictions, so other counties can use more discretion and still enforce the law. Are they just that much better at their jobs than y'all that they can make those finer distinctions?<br /><br />Besides, aren't there DWI pressure groups in those other cities? Arresting people because of political pressure isn't about improving public safety, it's about just what you said: politics and your personal views, not enforcing the law. If someone is visibly drunk enough to be impaired as you described, you have cause to arrest them. But many, like Jeff Ward, visibly AREN'T impaired and are being arrested anyway.<br /><br />Petra you may choose not to ride with someone who's had a "drink or two," but that's different from saying they've broken the law when they do so. I understand civilians confusing their own opinions with the law, but cops shouldn't.Gritsforbreakfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-23458959269899850722011-06-18T02:54:12.759-05:002011-06-18T02:54:12.759-05:00i have to agree. IF they are refusing the test......i have to agree. IF they are refusing the test....ARREST! but if they are taking the test and then not reaching the legal limit to be criminal and then being arrested by law enforcment. <br /><br />Well in my book that is an ILLEGAL ARREST and grounds to resist using whatever force is needed.rodsmithnoreply@blogger.com