tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post3913472715799216951..comments2024-03-25T20:06:39.794-05:00Comments on Grits for Breakfast: Jose Medellin and the rule of lawGritsforbreakfasthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-52411698805208496022008-12-09T13:14:00.000-06:002008-12-09T13:14:00.000-06:00Many international law authorities agreed they wer...Many international law authorities agreed they were self executing but SCOTUS decided to make new law, as is their wont; you're wrong to say those who considered the Vienna Conventions self executing were taking some novel position.<BR/><BR/>This has nothing to do with being for or against the death penalty.Gritsforbreakfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-41107538227711632632008-12-09T13:03:00.000-06:002008-12-09T13:03:00.000-06:00The US Supreme Court held that the Vienna accords ...<I>The US Supreme Court held that the Vienna accords did not give Medellin an individual right, but instead created an obligation for Congress to establish that right under federal law, something that had never been deemed necessary since the treaty was enacted in 1963.</I><BR/><BR/>This is sloppy legal reasoning. The Vienna Accords were not self-executing; the ratification by Congress did not in and of itself did not create federal law enforcable on the states. The Senate knew this when they ratified the agreements, and yet they did not take the further step of passing law. It was not that they did not deem it necessary; this lightweight argument presupposes that they expected the accords to be self-executing, and thus it unnecessary to pass the legislation making the precepts of the accords enforcable. <BR/><BR/>Congress CHOSE not to pass executable law, which is why the Supreme Court refused to grant Medellin relief. The Bush Administration argued that they could do this through executive order, the Supreme Court disagreed. Medellin's lawyers then argued that the Supreme Court should in effect create such law by ordering Texas to comply with the accords. Again, the Supreme Court disagreed and argued that only Congress can create the law; the courts can only interpret, the President can only enforce. <BR/><BR/>To argue that the accords were prima facie enforcable on the state courts is to be either ignorant or willfully obtuse in order to muddy the waters on behalf of Medellin and anti-capital punishment zealots everywhere.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-63282968095001560762008-08-07T14:56:00.000-05:002008-08-07T14:56:00.000-05:00paul-uk: Our word may not mean much to you now, bu...paul-uk: Our word may not mean much to you now, but it'll never mean anything if we don't start keeping it. <BR/><BR/>That our honorable ancestors welshed once or twice does not bind our hands, still less does it authorize us to welsh, as some seem to think in this thread.<BR/><BR/>I know it is traditional for the law to humanize communal vengeance, but that is not the aim of law. The aim of law is justice.T Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04007236905500441788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-30229579645677963382008-08-06T11:25:00.000-05:002008-08-06T11:25:00.000-05:00How can intelligent people be so stupid sometimes?...How can intelligent people be so stupid sometimes?<BR/><BR/>This was never about saving dude, it was about honoring our promises. Now that we have not done that, we AGAIN, are looked upon as villains. When this goes down in Saudi, or Mexico, or some other insignificant speck of a country, which among you will be crying out to kill the accused before he speaks to the Embassy? When some ignorant kid that believes all of the garbage mom and pop have told him about USA #1 breaks the law somewhere else, who among you will champion the rights of the foreign land to execute? <BR/><BR/>No, you will all be seething about rights, treaties, promises. <BR/><BR/>There is a reason that most countries will not ship accused to the US if they are wanted for Capitol offenses. They know that once here, our word is garbage.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-88109829059104185472008-08-06T03:07:00.000-05:002008-08-06T03:07:00.000-05:00Texas and China. Two five letter words. I think th...Texas and China. Two five letter words. I think their related. China also believes in the rule of law. Whatever law they feel like making. To Hell with everybody else. Texas on one side China on the other. What a combination.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-77867582400670405192008-08-05T23:17:00.000-05:002008-08-05T23:17:00.000-05:00If any of you read what these 6 guys did to these ...If any of you read what these 6 guys did to these two girls, there would be way more comments about torturing the guy than just putting him to death.<BR/><BR/>Insane what they did to those two girls. There is no way I could have let anyone live with what they did. Go read it and tell me if you have any sympathy for some guy trying to claim Mexican citizenship after the fact.Monkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03005208413859626073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-87367670235515897452008-08-05T22:32:00.000-05:002008-08-05T22:32:00.000-05:00Medellin got the big jab. Ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha...Medellin got the big jab. Ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-16904252729775151012008-08-05T21:03:00.000-05:002008-08-05T21:03:00.000-05:00I love how everyone is all about the "rule of law"...I love how everyone is all about the "rule of law" - we wouldn't be in this mess if people were following the "rule of law". Like when Jose Medellian's family came here illegally when he was 3. Or when the city of Houston failed to inquire if he was an American citizen? Of course not because Houston is a sanctuary city and they never ask even when you shoot a police officer. He lived in this country 15 years and then 4 years after his conviction he wants to be a Mexican citizen? Come on, this is just one of the reasons we need to fix illegal immigration because it keeps happening over and over again while we fail to "follow the rule of law" I say B.S. kill the scumbag.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-68939307044993799392008-08-05T16:57:00.000-05:002008-08-05T16:57:00.000-05:00I would be ok with allowing Jose Medellin to live ...I would be ok with allowing Jose Medellin to live if, instead of executing him, they remove all his skin with an electric belt sander... and then dunk him in a slurry of salt and rubbing alcohol. <BR/><BR/>Then, when his skin grows back, do it again. Continue this process until he kills himself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-63991709437435333812008-08-05T15:06:00.000-05:002008-08-05T15:06:00.000-05:00In reply to t-king I hate to say it but the word o...In reply to t-king I hate to say it but the word of honour of the United States has very little weight over here. The UK ratified a bilateral exradition treaty which made the procedure for extradition simpiler and removed the need to present evidence to support the extradition this was origanally intended for terroist acts, however it has only been used so far in "white collar" crimes. At the same time the US Senate had not ratified the treaty as they feared that it would be used to extradite persons wanted for commiting terrorist offences from the US to the UK!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-7354220158102651752008-08-05T15:04:00.000-05:002008-08-05T15:04:00.000-05:00Many of you want this murderer released hoping tha...Many of you want this murderer released hoping that US citizens can go free after committing crimes in some Islamic countries or just want to feel good or want good report in European media. The rest of us want real justice and not stupid verdicts handed down by judges (who wear lace dresses) in World Court, who never had a teenage daughter savagely murdered. If you would like know what this demon did, please follow this link. http://www.murdervictims.com/voices/jeneliz.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-15331588411864006702008-08-05T14:33:00.000-05:002008-08-05T14:33:00.000-05:00If this means the execution of Medellin is postpon...If this means the execution of Medellin is postponed or that he is retried, the final result under the circumstances disclosed is unlikely to be any different. <BR/><BR/>Is putting off the execution of Medellin for awhile really too high a price to pay to protect the bona fides of the USA and uphold the US Constitution?T Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04007236905500441788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-62232295565436115662008-08-05T14:15:00.000-05:002008-08-05T14:15:00.000-05:0010:41, 8:28 and 10:55 -- US treaties are are "law ...10:41, 8:28 and 10:55 -- US treaties are are "law of the land":<BR/><BR/>US Constitution, Article VI, section 2 --<BR/><BR/>"This Constitution...and all the Treaties made...shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."<BR/><BR/>The question is one of reciprocity between nations and national honor -- does the US keep its word with other countries? <BR/><BR/>The principle involved, as it relates to our form of government,ought to trump popular outrage at the appellant. If the states can ignore treaties willy-nilly, they do so to the detriment of the US and imperil the country's honor.T Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04007236905500441788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-61403983039787422322008-08-05T13:15:00.000-05:002008-08-05T13:15:00.000-05:00Everyone seems to be making this into a want to ov...Everyone seems to be making this into a want to overturn convictions due the fact that an individual is not from the US. I think Grits is making a far deeper point than some of you will not dive into. <BR/><BR/>The point being that Texas is but on insignificant speck in the whole dust pile. Like it or not, which I am sure most of the centralist Texans do not, the world that we lived in the 1800's is no longer around. This is the 21st century. Ramifications will come to those that had nothing to do with this decision, nor the insignificant speck.<BR/><BR/>As this is a world economy, and Americans are traveling the world on Business, leisure, or a mixture there are going to be times when we will see that Uncle Sam is NOT the end all legal authority. When this happens, and you do scream for the Consulor, please don't be surprised when that country gives you no certain terms as to the NO answer. <BR/><BR/>Currently we have prisoners in Gitmo that are not being held according to treaty. They are not afforded rights that the US once championed. We will see in the future when the countries of these citizens in Gitmo will also overlook the 'rule of law'.<BR/><BR/>Our Problem, the problem of the people of America, is a belief that there is us then the rest of the world which should be subservient to us. The days of USA USA USA are over folks, the world has far eclipsed us, and view us as the scoundrel. <BR/><BR/>If the US doesn't honor treaties that we ourselves set forth in some manner, they will come back to bite us in the end, and our citizens will be made to suffer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-56158687304888880672008-08-05T11:27:00.000-05:002008-08-05T11:27:00.000-05:00Criminals shouldn't have it both ways. Houston is ...Criminals shouldn't have it both ways. Houston is a sanctuary city,<BR/>which means cops can't ask the arrested about his status as regards immigration and then when convicted he screems about the consulate. The only sad thing is that the girls' relatives have had to wait 15 years for justice. This guy should have been executed in 1993.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-25757802891272264472008-08-05T10:55:00.000-05:002008-08-05T10:55:00.000-05:00Yeah, but here's the thing 8:43. I agree with you...Yeah, but here's the thing 8:43. I agree with you that I would want to be treated fairly abroad. But if I were to get arrested anywhere outside of the US, you can darn well bet I'm going to be screaming "I'm an American. I'm from the US. I am not from this country," as I think any reasonable person would do, IF, in fact, he were on foreign soil. Medellin didn't do any of that. Why not? Because based upon his background, he really wasn't on foreign soil at all. <BR/><BR/>Yes, there may well be a poster child on death row or in prison who illustrates US abuses of the Vienna Convention and consular notification. However, Medellin is not that person.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-83991571943702419122008-08-05T08:17:00.000-05:002008-08-05T08:17:00.000-05:00And that's another argument against sanctuary citi...And that's another argument against sanctuary cities, in addition to the disrespect of the rule of law that it engenders. If no one asks about citizenship status, people who are supposed to have international law rights -- arrested persons of foreign nationality accessing their consulate, for example -- will be lumped in with everyone else when international law argues they should not be.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-10088475183931810692008-08-04T22:52:00.000-05:002008-08-04T22:52:00.000-05:00What is ridiculous is to seek to overturn a convic...What is ridiculous is to seek to overturn a conviction and sentence when the defendant waited for four years to tell anyone that he was a foreign national.<BR/><BR/>Does the World Court somehow expect our police officers to be clairvoyant?<BR/><BR/>Also, what if a foreign national was arrested in a sanctuary city where the police do not inquire regarding immigration status, how would they be able to ascertain whether consular notification was even needed?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-57415278426099581292008-08-04T20:43:00.000-05:002008-08-04T20:43:00.000-05:00The point that concerns me is not that this guy is...The point that concerns me is not that this guy is facing death for a crime that deserves death. He apparently does. <BR/><BR/>The point that concerns me is whether there is any legitimate question about whether a person was entitled to yet was denied rights under international law principles adopted by this country. Unfortunately, this is simply not clear from the public discourse regarding this case.<BR/><BR/>Yes, it's objectively ridiculous to think that a person who has lived here since he was three years old would think of himself as a foreign national - I would guess (but do not know) he did not and does not. Yes, it's a ploy by death penalty opponents to stop an execution, not a suggestion that he was not guilty as charged. No one has suggested he is not guilty as charged.<BR/><BR/>But -- selfish me -- if I travel abroad, I want whatever country I am in to honor whatever rights that country and the U.S. have agreed I should have. Even if the folks who want to violate those agreed on rights are the foreign country's local, not national, governmental authorities. And even if the folks in that other country think my assertion of those rights is ridiculous.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-48581266179726522632008-08-04T20:28:00.000-05:002008-08-04T20:28:00.000-05:00The problem in this case that the World Court is t...The problem in this case that the World Court is trying for a remedy through the wrong process. There was no error in the Texas trial. Thus, the World Court has no business trying to order the Texas courts around.<BR/><BR/>If there is to be a remedy, Congress needs to make some kind of federal process available. Of course, Judge Cochran does a good job showing that Medellin would lose under any sensible process. In any case, Congress has shown no intention of creating such a federal process available.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-44334534171809070802008-08-04T16:11:00.000-05:002008-08-04T16:11:00.000-05:00In many cases like that of President Hugo Chavez, ...<I>In many cases like that of President Hugo Chavez, people are sent to jail and kept there without due process.</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>Ha ha! Don't be a neocon tool Ian, we do that to people here in the USA just as well.... we've got a whole mess of them down in Gitmo and we didnt even both charging them with any crime. <BR/><BR/>Forget the spliter in Venezuela's eye and worry about the mote in ours.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-67383505743835460142008-08-04T15:54:00.000-05:002008-08-04T15:54:00.000-05:00The "rule of law" is extremely important, especial...The "rule of law" is extremely important, especially in Latin America as many presidents feel that they can cross it. In many cases like that of President Hugo Chavez, people are sent to jail and kept there without due process. <BR/>President Hugo Chavez is responsible for countless human rights violations. He is currently holding many political prisoners, all of whom were imprisoned by the Venezuelan government on trumped-up charges in cases with manifest due process violations.<BR/>If you are interested in this issue you should check out<BR/><BR/>http://www.TellChavez.com<BR/><BR/>Thanks!Ianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16698861285903347564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-52730301758225581082008-08-04T13:59:00.000-05:002008-08-04T13:59:00.000-05:00Are we honest? Is our word true? Will we abide by ...<I>Are we honest? Is our word true? Will we abide by the law or hold ourselves above it? </I><BR/><BR/>After 8 years of this administration do you even have to ask this question?<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><I>"There are two types of people opposed to this execution:<BR/>1. People opposed to the death penalty.<BR/>2. People who deserve to be executed.<BR/>Take away those two groups and there is nobody championing this treaty."<BR/><BR/>Of course, President Bush presided over 152 execution's as Texas Governor, but HE'S "championing this treaty," as are many people who are otherwise pro-death penalty.</I><BR/><BR/>Some people might say that Bush is in one of those two groups.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-41417083433887470132008-08-04T13:49:00.000-05:002008-08-04T13:49:00.000-05:00Grits, Texas has a judgment that holds that it can...Grits, Texas has a judgment that holds that it can execute Medellin with no further review of Vienna issues. The statute would undo that. That raises separation of powers issues--see Plaut v. Spendthrift Farms. <BR/><BR/>Perhaps courts would "get there", but it's not a slam dunk by any stretch. Ask one of your lawyer buddies.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-59543303829001302272008-08-04T13:43:00.000-05:002008-08-04T13:43:00.000-05:0012:48, Congress isn't aiming to "override the Supr...12:48, Congress isn't aiming to "override the Supreme Court judgment."<BR/><BR/>SCOTUS said the Vienna treaty didn't apply because Congress had not created an enabling law, so they're creating one. That's in direct accordance with SCOTUS, not "overriding" them.Gritsforbreakfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.com