tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post5571415205597308482..comments2024-03-25T20:06:39.794-05:00Comments on Grits for Breakfast: Is "Babysitting While White" reasonable suspicion for police questioning?Gritsforbreakfasthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comBlogger116125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-55422133502733979122013-02-11T14:14:11.347-06:002013-02-11T14:14:11.347-06:00I think you did exactly the right thing. The polic...I think you did exactly the right thing. The police werein the wrong. <br />They could have simply driven by & seen you walking down the street, doing nothing wrong, and kept on going. <br />Instead, they decided to waste more time & resources... simply because you exercised your rights. The peaceful exercise of protected civil rights can never be RAS of a crime. <br />The sooner the police get back to respecting citizens & protecting their rights, the less effort they'll waste being officious & overbearing by bothering good citizens who aren't doing anything wrong. Ms.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17393270900141592722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-69345926972027415052012-02-18T14:43:45.339-06:002012-02-18T14:43:45.339-06:00Dunno if this's been said, but had you simply ...Dunno if this's been said, but had you simply said that she was your granddaughter, you'd've probably been able to go sooner without much trouble. You should have answered not because you legally didn't have to, but because it would've fixed everything up. But yes the APD did waste their time. You were in the right.David (The Pants)noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-20646982149228766262012-02-12T10:02:05.890-06:002012-02-12T10:02:05.890-06:00It was responded to by the first officer on the bi...It was responded to by the first officer on the bike path. I guess if you respond with one car and determine no crime has been commited then the next logical step is to respond with 9.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-53001020207520353032009-08-15T08:29:30.441-05:002009-08-15T08:29:30.441-05:00Hey I just saw this story about Bob Dylan being qu...Hey I just saw this story about Bob Dylan being <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090815/ap_on_en_mu/us_people_bob_dylan" rel="nofollow">questioned by police</a> and I remembered this thread.Renonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-83101417925864509522009-08-02T02:11:06.603-05:002009-08-02T02:11:06.603-05:00Interesting story, thanks for sharing!Interesting story, thanks for sharing!tolbertmehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14785031931947130805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-35254926563275822552008-11-25T20:50:00.000-06:002008-11-25T20:50:00.000-06:00Hello,I think Scott's response was a good one. At ...Hello,<BR/><BR/>I think Scott's response was a good one. At least as far as I can tell from his post, he stood up for his rights while not obstructing the police's legitimate purposes.<BR/><BR/>We just can't stop and aggressively question, much less hold, anyone who <B>might</B> be committing a crime (no, not even kidnapping a child); trying that leads straight to the police state.<BR/><BR/>I don't think Scott's was the <B>only</B> correct response, and I know standing up to the police officers who violate people's rights or even just common courtesy isn't everyone's cup of tea. I especially appreciate wfasonpi's balanced approach. <BR/><BR/>As I've posted, some people are just <A HREF="http://buildingcommonground.blogspot.com/2008/09/who-ya-gonna-call.html" REL="nofollow">too darned quick</A> to call the cops. And some other people are just too darned quick to give any possible suspicion - except of course the suspicion of police misconduct or of harassment by 911 call - the benefit of every doubt.<BR/><BR/>There's some debate on the amount of discretion police have - or should have - regarding their response to a plainly groundless 911 call. (I'm not talking about mistaken international or fax calls or hang-up calls, but rather calls from people who call just to say they feel suspicious about someone but can't give any specific information about why.)<BR/><BR/>In that regard, I liked the anonymous (11/10; 17:57) police dispatcher's comment. Maybe the police have to respond to plain old ethnic bigotry, but they don't even have to contact anyone if they don't see anything wrong.<BR/><BR/>Scott, keep up the good work!<BR/><BR/>Jeff Deutsch<BR/><BR/>PS: Hat tip to <A HREF="http://blog.austindefense.com/2008/11/articles/search-and-seizure/nominee-for-best-criminal-defense-blog-post-of-the-year" REL="nofollow">Jamie Spencer</A> for pointing me here.Jeff Deutschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00975267700905023579noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-58506716998276021622008-11-25T11:11:00.000-06:002008-11-25T11:11:00.000-06:00I had a similar experience at the Texas Parks and ...I had a similar experience at the Texas Parks and Wildlife Expo. At that time, I had a four year old black foster daughter. I had her and two of my own kids with me that day.<BR/><BR/>By the end of the day my foster daughter was tired of walking and stressed over missing her mother. She was crying and saying "I want my mommy!" over and over. In the parking area, another family nervously inquired if she was alright. I said that she would be okay, that she just missed her mother.<BR/><BR/>After buckling up the kiddos and following the guidance of the parking helpers, I was directed to the side, where I was questioned by a DPS officer. He uncomfortably explained that he had "received a call" and so he just had to "check things out." I told him she was my foster daughter and that yes she is sad and misses her mother.<BR/><BR/>That seemed to satisfy him, and he made some conciliatory comment about having to make the inquiry. I said "Well, sure, I mean we don't exactly match." He got a very startled look on his face when I said that and quickly waved me on to leave.<BR/><BR/>It would seem that stopping a man with a child that might not be his is a perfectly acceptable imposition, but stopping someone on a racial basis was a dangerous thing for him to admit to. It's okay to assume that a man is dangerous to children on the basis of his gender, but it isn't okay to pull somebody over on the basis of race. We have a prejudice in this country, a prejudice that dare not speak its name, and it is called misandry.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-45165867022164238222008-11-25T09:13:00.000-06:002008-11-25T09:13:00.000-06:00While I agree with your outrage, I think you've mi...While I agree with your outrage, I think you've missed an important point here:You were also babysitting while <B>**male**</B> which is much more dangerous than being white.<BR/><BR/><I>Every body knows,</I> of course, that males are the only species of committing kidnapping, murder, rape, or violence of any sort.<BR/><BR/>http://boysite.info/blog/?p=7Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-81235044703255249402008-11-14T14:16:00.000-06:002008-11-14T14:16:00.000-06:00Know-I put my driver's license, tag registration a...Know-<BR/>I put my driver's license, tag registration and insurance card in a small wallet under the dashboard. I cleared everything else out. I will be keeping my purse, children's backpacks and shopping bags in the trunk!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-22749856924041358792008-11-13T11:57:00.000-06:002008-11-13T11:57:00.000-06:00When I was little my dog got hit by I car. Not kno...When I was little my dog got hit by I car. Not knowing any better I ran to his aid. He clamped onto my arm and my dad had to pry him off. <BR/><BR/>The lesson is that injured dogs are dangerous. John Walsh is an injured dog.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-20589348257447819652008-11-12T16:31:00.000-06:002008-11-12T16:31:00.000-06:00100+ comments down the page is a tough place to ad...100+ comments down the page is a tough place to add useful content, but I just ran across this entry from the Daddy Types blog: <A HREF="http://daddytypes.com/2007/08/24/if_you_see_something_say_something_ok_how_about_stfu_virginia.php" REL="nofollow">If You See Something, Say Something</A>. In 2007, the state of Virginia ran billboards showing a man holding a child's hand, and the tagline "It doesn't feel right when I see them together". The blogger, who like most dads holds his children's hands all the time, sees this as an egregious case of guilt by association.<BR/><BR/>The blog post references a Wall Street Journal article, <A HREF="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118782905698506010.html?mod=todays_us_personal_journal" REL="nofollow">Are We Teaching Our Kids To Be Fearful of Men?</A>, that quotes John Walsh ("America's Most Wanted") as comparing men with dangerous dogs -- you shouldn't let a child near either one. I honestly sympathize with Walsh, and his unspeakable anguish over the loss of his son. But his pain is no excuse for taking away my childrens' innocence and replacing it with fear.<BR/><BR/>That said, I tend towards cooperation instead of confrontation. I appreciate the stand you took, though, and I will keep those hard-earned lessons in mind.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12547078421687484060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-16624805508351941212008-11-12T13:52:00.000-06:002008-11-12T13:52:00.000-06:00The suspicion was based on your gender, not your r...The suspicion was based on your gender, not your race.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-4436927582536160212008-11-12T10:40:00.000-06:002008-11-12T10:40:00.000-06:00Know-That was a great video! I didn't write it dow...Know-<BR/>That was a great video! I didn't write it down but he made a great point at the end about it not being natural to stand up especially in an emotional state. It is very difficult to stand up for yourself, they do not back down for a while, that dynamic isn't something most people are used to dealing with. <BR/> I watched the one about Washington DC, God bless them!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-72740309521081812052008-11-11T16:04:00.000-06:002008-11-11T16:04:00.000-06:00It seems likely that there was no valid reason for...It seems likely that there was no valid reason for detaining Scott, and even less for the arrival of reinforcements, other than the informal police policy of reacting to a person who knows their rights with an overwhelming show of force to back up police authoritah, possibly with hopes of escalating the situation to the point where further police action would be justified. <BR/><BR/>It also seems that the informal policy is to classify anyone who asks, "Am I free to go?" as uncooperative and suspicious. After all, if you're not doing anything wrong, what's your rush to get along with your life? <BR/><BR/><I><B>Warning:</B> If the government finds out that you clicked on the link below, you could be classified as potentially uncooperative.</I><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA" REL="nofollow"> The Citizen's Guide to Surviving Police Encounters -- it's critical to know your rights.</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-8360379857154113962008-11-11T06:50:00.000-06:002008-11-11T06:50:00.000-06:00Well, we all have our racial prejudices. I would p...Well, we all have our racial prejudices. I would probably be more likely to support the questioning if it were a Negro in the company of a White child.<BR/><BR/>It used to be that if a Black man was talking to a White woman and he had a cap on his head instead of in his hand, a cop would stop for sure. Or if a Black was driving a White female was sitting up front rather than in the back. <BR/><BR/>With our high level of crime I don't think police can afford to waste resources though.FleaStiffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09837830811566745662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-91877858570292150022008-11-11T00:17:00.000-06:002008-11-11T00:17:00.000-06:00Anonymous,SCOTUS ruled in Hibiil v Nevada that a s...Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>SCOTUS ruled in Hibiil v Nevada that a state can make and enforce failure to identify laws upon articulatable suspicion. While the Texas statute quoted earlier doesn't seem to encompass all the behavior that the court ruled could be grounds, their standard is low enough that it's probably better to identify yourself upon demand by an officer. Prior to Hibiil there was no duty to answer any question posed by an officer.Soronel Haetirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11639906179427371695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-52189085545462073062008-11-10T23:35:00.000-06:002008-11-10T23:35:00.000-06:00Grits -I read the failure to identity, is that jus...Grits -<BR/>I read the failure to identity, is that just if you are arrested? I'm a customer service rep and in no way involved with the legal system but it said lawfully arrested so I'm confused. :) If a cop stops you and you when you are walking and you don't give them your name can you be arrested? I thought we didn't have to give out information unless we were arrested.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-18936702557335446442008-11-10T17:57:00.000-06:002008-11-10T17:57:00.000-06:00I've worked as a police dispatcher and while most ...I've worked as a police dispatcher and while most departments will check out most 911 calls, the level of response in my experience always matches the level of credibility the officer gives the call. As a fairly comparable example- after 9/11 we received calls every once in a while along the lines of "I'm in a bar and there are two guys here speaking in a foreign language." No crime, no activity other than not speaking English. The officers' response was invariably to pull into the bar, walk through to make sure nothing was happening and go on their merry way without contacting anyone. For three cruisers to pull up and detain you because you happened to be walking down a public street in full view with a not-kicking-and-screaming-child who was clearly comfortable with you is ludicrous.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-31156491603396961312008-11-10T16:14:00.000-06:002008-11-10T16:14:00.000-06:00jsn has it right -- assuming a good, service-orien...jsn has it right -- assuming a good, service-oriented small town cop (there are such) and a fairly small number of white geezer-Americans with AA grandkids. <BR/><BR/>Just to chime in, a bit late, with maybe a different perspective... while I'm not now and have never been a member of the -- err, a cop, I do have some sympathy for cops who do a good, service-oriented job, even when, in good faith, they get some stuff wrong. <BR/><BR/>Which is where the problem starts here. The cop doesn't get to decide who calls 911, nor what he or she is dispatched to check out, after all. <BR/><BR/>Sure; the system should sort stuff out before it gets to her. She doesn't get to wait until the whole system gets better before she rolls on a call. <BR/><BR/>So, the challenge for the good, service-oriented cop is to check things out without violating anybody's rights, without unnecessarily scaring a little kid (who probably just has an elderly babysitter of a different race, and that's not exactly unknown) or, for that matter, unnecessarily irritating the elderly babysitter. ("When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras." Part of a cop's job is to check the horses and make sure that they're not zebras.)<BR/><BR/>After all, while stranger abductions are rare, they're zebras, not unicorns. <BR/><BR/>And that's where the cop screwed up. <BR/><BR/><I>The very first words out of the cop's mouth were that she was there to question me on suspicion of being a child molester. (She didn't say it in so many words, but it was the only possible implication.)</I><BR/><BR/>Now, granted, that's what she was there to do; she wasn't there to investigate the possibility of babysitting while white suddenly having become a crime. <BR/><BR/>But -- as you point out -- cops can lie, and lies can be social (and professional) lubricants. <BR/>A retired cop of my acquaintance is fairly famous locally for, "Start soft; it gives you somewhere to go."<BR/><BR/>If she'd started with an apology for bothering you -- interrupted by an observation as to how cute Ty was "G'morning, sir; my name's Jennifer, and -- wow, what a cute little girl; her smile reminds me of my niece!" -- you might well have decided to play nice. It's entirely possible that with a non-threatening adult approaching, a kid might let the cat out of the bag ("Grandpa's taking me to pet the cats again today!") that there's no problem. <BR/><BR/>(Odds are pretty good, in fact, that a protective grandparent is going to play nice in that sort of situation, for fear of scaring the granddaughter.) <BR/><BR/>Hell, it might even have been educational for a criminal defense attorney to find out that a cop could, possibly, perform a legally questionable stop without frightening a little girl, and maybe even making a friend of her.<BR/><BR/>(I know that latter can happen, because I've watched it done.)Joel Rosenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14745514449389969195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-43829427478063273222008-11-10T15:48:00.000-06:002008-11-10T15:48:00.000-06:00To Anonymous, 11/7 6:07 am--To answer your questio...To Anonymous, 11/7 6:07 am--<BR/><BR/>To answer your question about conditions being met for lawful detention: you are correct, it was not lawful--they didn't not have reasonable suspicion, but that becomes a matter of interpretation on the scene--not something you want to argue if you're attempting to plead the 5th (they WANT you to argue with them to provide a basis for "resist" charges, etc).<BR/><BR/>As far as your comment:<BR/><BR/>"This may be irrelevant, but the child is not your "granddaughter" if she is your godchild's child."<BR/><BR/>Not only is it irrelevant, it's not your business what other people call their family members. If Ty calls him "grandpa" who are you to correct her?Debhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01654599360807767386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-24137537287424258022008-11-10T14:10:00.000-06:002008-11-10T14:10:00.000-06:00Grits -- Did it occur to you that the the basis of...Grits -- Did it occur to you that the the basis of the suspicion that prompted the 911 call was nothing more than the fact that a white adult was with a black toddler? Not because an adult who is white, walking with a toddler who is black is suspicious because of __ blank__ (something other than a difference in race)?<BR/><BR/>You should get a copy of the 911 tape - if so, police had even less reason to detain you, right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-56737187385621395132008-11-10T13:06:00.000-06:002008-11-10T13:06:00.000-06:00"... you certainly have the right to assert your r..."... you certainly have the right to assert your rights. But...just because you can, doesn't mean you should."<BR/><BR/>Ignore (don't use) your rights and they'll go away.<BR/><BR/><BR/>"The thing that was so dumb about this incident is that if a person is engaged in a kidnapping they don't walk on a public sidewalk holding the victims hand."<BR/><BR/>And the victim isn't willingly holding the kidnapper's finger...and smiling and laughing and doing all the tell-tale things kids do when they are just fine.<BR/><BR/>I.E. She shouldn't have ever even stopped to question him based on the visual check that all was okay, much less 911 dispatch anyone based on skin color.Debhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01654599360807767386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-5378273255444608582008-11-10T08:18:00.000-06:002008-11-10T08:18:00.000-06:00I read your article and I thought back to my home ...I read your article and I thought back to my home daycare in Garland, Texas, where I had a child die from SIDS. I cared for children of all color, including children from mixed families. I've wondered more than once about it.<BR/>jackiebuffalo.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-63367248005868512612008-11-09T20:34:00.000-06:002008-11-09T20:34:00.000-06:00Anyone who trades liberty for security will have n...Anyone who trades liberty for security will have neither.Robert Langhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16497658569363397644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-85511220519079298692008-11-09T15:55:00.000-06:002008-11-09T15:55:00.000-06:00I should have mentioned the above arrest of FEMA D...I should have mentioned the above arrest of FEMA Director of Operations by Galveston Police officers occurred one month after Hurricane Ike.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com