tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post8889657787508768502..comments2024-03-25T20:06:39.794-05:00Comments on Grits for Breakfast: Rethinking probation as primary punishmentGritsforbreakfasthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-11321980116374496262010-02-16T21:41:32.216-06:002010-02-16T21:41:32.216-06:006:28
How many crimes would all your precious TYC ...6:28<br /><br />How many crimes would all your precious TYC beauties have committed if they weren't in TYC? After all that is why they were sent right. A judge and a prosecutor in a county near you said the juve criminal was not safe in your community...TYC didn't recruit him. What good did your community do?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-80034011997973971862010-02-15T13:02:03.199-06:002010-02-15T13:02:03.199-06:00Please remember Adult vs Juvenile probation depart...Please remember Adult vs Juvenile probation departments are 2 very different animals. I started out in juvenile, now in adult and the 2 are not only funded differently but an officer's approach is much different. A juvenile you can mold, an adult you have to coax. An adult is pretty much dealt with one on one, a juvenile you have the entire family dynamics to consider. In both disciplines you have an abundance of CYA'ing to do, so much more so on the juvenile side, that you loose effective time that could be used to deal with the clients. Probation works for all ages, just the approach is different and the juveniles you have a realitively shory window to try yo be effective with them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-56684118344477021282010-02-15T12:38:31.027-06:002010-02-15T12:38:31.027-06:00Probation works if and only if the probation offic...Probation works if and only if the probation officer takes it seriously. Too many times the officer is just out for their paycheck and will not take the extra time to really learn about their caseload. Everyone has their unique factors that contribute to their daily actions and the officers need to understand that and HELP. Many people make a bad decision that turns worse for them with an overzealous probation officer or district attny. Rehabilitation with compassion works better on first offenders than incarceration.<br />CXCAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-38674403656940007992010-02-15T11:18:19.742-06:002010-02-15T11:18:19.742-06:00The reason Mexico has a lower "crime rate&quo...The reason Mexico has a lower "crime rate" is not that there are fewer crimes in Mexico.<br /><br />The reason Mexico has a lower "crime rate" is that the police are so corrupt that many crimes are never reported. The police themseleves are guilty of many of those unreported crimes.Holanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-83929371116341068672010-02-15T09:17:08.314-06:002010-02-15T09:17:08.314-06:00Robbing, raping and killing is not enough - now th...Robbing, raping and killing is not enough - now this:<br /><br /><br />Report cites ‘radicalization’ of U.S. prisoners<br />As many of three dozen Americans converted to Islam, went to Yemen<br /><br />Jan. 19, 2010 AP<br />WASHINGTON - U.S. law enforcement authorities believe as many as three dozen Americans who converted to Islam in prison have traveled to Yemen, possibly to train with al-Qaida, according to a Senate report.<br />The "radicalization" of the individuals has alarmed U.S. officials even though no evidence has immediately tied them to terrorist activities.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-33447102562966501752010-02-14T18:09:27.740-06:002010-02-14T18:09:27.740-06:00To understand the culture that probation and parol...To understand the culture that probation and parole officers are facing, read the story of Larmondo “Flair” Allen from New Orleans who died of multiple gunshot wounds.<br /><br />It seems that Larmondo “Flair” Allen was a 25 year old facing murder charges. The paper listed his occupation as "Entrepreneur." Unmarried with 6 daughters and 3 sons by the age of 25 I guess he was an "Entrepreneur" drawing over a hundred thousand a year from chumps, I mean taxpayers for his baby mommies and nine children.<br /><br />Like so many millions, he just "did his thing."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-60434336778242888262010-02-13T18:28:00.063-06:002010-02-13T18:28:00.063-06:00Locking people up as punishment has been proven in...Locking people up as punishment has been proven inadequate right here in good ole Texas - look at TYC. Such a waste of our cherished state funds.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-83725717633672390252010-02-13T17:08:47.035-06:002010-02-13T17:08:47.035-06:00I'm sorry I'm not as intellectrual as you ...I'm sorry I'm not as intellectrual as you Mr. Grits. Anyway, it's been nice talking to you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-18588598009003154632010-02-13T16:56:11.523-06:002010-02-13T16:56:11.523-06:00The US has a large hip hop, gang oriented predator...The US has a large hip hop, gang oriented predatory population with an attitude. Many other countries doesn't have that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-21928122127718257002010-02-13T15:09:07.227-06:002010-02-13T15:09:07.227-06:002:21, please pay closer attention: I don't hav...2:21, please pay closer attention: I don't have a one-size-fits-all answer, as I said, because "there are as many different reasons as there are countries on the list with better outcomes than ours." I don't know how much clearer I can be, but if you'd like to keep repeating yourself, I can keep giving you the same answer over and over. I didn't say there's NOT a reason, I said every country is different and there's not a single answer. Mexico is different from Germany which is different from Japan. The reasons why each of those countries has lower crime rates than in America (yes, including Mexico) are different in each case. What about that don't you understand?<br /><br />As for, "Are you saying these countries have a lower incarceration rate because they have a lower crime rate? If yes, that's absurd."<br /><br />Actually, you're absurd. Either you're intentionally misrepresenting what I've said or just are too dense to understand it. I did not conflate crime rates and incarceration - you did. The US <a href="http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita" rel="nofollow">ranks 8th internationally</a> in per capita crime. By contrast, we have far and away the world's highest incarceration rate - 5% of the world's population and 25% of its prisoners. If locking lots of people up in and of itself reduced crime, nations like France, Germany, Spain, Japan, etc., that incarcerate at far lower rates should have higher crime - they do not. Worldwide, the average crimes per capita is at 33.7 per thousand, while in the United States our rate is 80 per 1,000.<br /><br />BTW, I mentioned Britain earlier; looking at the <a href="http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita" rel="nofollow">numbers from Nationmasters</a>, the UK's crime rate has increased since I last looked at the numbers a couple of years ago, and is now higher than the US. The vast majority of nations in the world, however, have lower crime rates than we do - most of them substantially so - so my overall point still stands. If other nations can achieve similar or (usually) lower crime rates by incarcerating a fraction of what we do, clearly mass incarceration is not the only possible way to reduce or prevent crime.Gritsforbreakfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-11631122202746025382010-02-13T14:21:22.825-06:002010-02-13T14:21:22.825-06:00If you think you know a one-size-fits-all answer, ...If you think you know a one-size-fits-all answer, by all means please provide it.<br /><br />Don't have answer and apparently you don't either. I didn't read anything about the crime rates of these countries (murder, rape, robbery, theft, assault, motor vehicle theft) and how they compare to the United States.<br /><br />Incarceration rates and crime rates are two different things. Are you saying these countries have a lower incarceration rate because they have a lower crime rate? If yes, that's absurd. Maybe law enforcement doesn't have the same clearance rate we have in America.<br /><br />Mexioc has a lower incarceration rate, do they have a lower murder rate?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-36648218346752895432010-02-13T14:08:15.034-06:002010-02-13T14:08:15.034-06:00We had a judge here in Dallas that put everyone on...We had a judge here in Dallas that put everyone on Deferred Adjudication and then just waited for them to screw up. When they missed their first report or failed to make a payment -- WHAMMO!!! -- maximum pen time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-86690194020119571412010-02-13T14:03:19.298-06:002010-02-13T14:03:19.298-06:00Anyone can do time but not everyone can complete p...Anyone can do time but not everyone can complete probation. With all of the cutbacks in the prison system effectively eliminating many of the self-improvement options, probation seems to be the one "punishment" which actually works to rehabilitate as well as punish.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-17956597372032881342010-02-13T13:06:05.481-06:002010-02-13T13:06:05.481-06:0012:54, I answered your question: "there are a...12:54, I answered your question: "there are as many different reasons as there are countries on the list with better outcomes than ours."<br /><br />If you think you know a one-size-fits-all answer, by all means please provide it.Gritsforbreakfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-12728637328292082792010-02-13T12:54:22.012-06:002010-02-13T12:54:22.012-06:00Again Grits, the question is why are crime rates l...Again Grits, the question is why are crime rates lower in these other countries?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-11142044921732846942010-02-13T11:59:06.274-06:002010-02-13T11:59:06.274-06:00This is my plan to reform the criminal justice sys...This is my plan to reform the criminal justice system: <br /><br />1. Eliminate the concept of misdemeanor or felony by allowing the judge and jury to choose any legal punishment for any crime. <br /><br />2. Legal punishments are as follows:<br /> <b>Probation</b>: No time limit; lifetime probation is possible.<br /> <b>Jail</b>: Maximum legal jail term is 90 days.<br /> <b>Prison</b>: Maximum legal prison term is 4 years hard labor.<br /> <b>Execution</b> Any crime deserving more punishment than 4 years prison is a capital offense. <br /><br />3. The burden of proof on capital offenses is "beyond a shadow of a doubt."<br /><br />4. If lawmakers feel that the maximum jail or prison terms are not enough punishment their only recourse is not to lengthen the maximum term but rather to increase the degree of unpleasantness of the incarceration. <br /><br />5. All lawmakers, prosecutors and judges must spend 1 week per year in jail except every 4th year that week is spent in prison. The annual incarceration term for lawmakers is doubled in any year in which laws are modified to increase the unpleasantness of incarceration.Levinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-17057820290477026292010-02-13T09:59:31.900-06:002010-02-13T09:59:31.900-06:0006:41 You said:
"These offenders are just co...06:41 You said:<br />"These offenders are just comfortable with their life and consider their life just as normal as the law abiding citizen."<br /><br />You got it right.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-85913328904056988592010-02-13T09:51:09.251-06:002010-02-13T09:51:09.251-06:00Isn't the real purpose of the criminal justice...Isn't the real purpose of the criminal justice system to stop crime? I'm not certain of the statistic, but a very large percentage of our population is in prison for drug offenses, either delivery or possession. If the program is corrupt, as mentioned in an earlier post, it needs to be fixed. If probation officers are advising their clients to not talk with their attorneys or a deal is off the table, they need to be fired. That's not their job anyway. The fact is that locking someone away because we are mad at them never works. As Dennis Chaleen said, we need to reserve prisons for the offenders we are afraid of. I believe that probation should be the primary sentencing option for all eligible offenders. Our adversarial system of criminal justice may never allow for that, but maybe one day it will. <br /><br />I think that most people honestly want to change. Having been to hundreds of Drug Court graduations over the years, it is honestly the only time I feel my efforts as a PO are a success. Watching people chenge is a rewarding feeling. I never felt that great watching someone go to prison, unless I was afraid of them. All community corrections programs should work as well as Drug Courts. With proper resources, an understanding legislature and a decline of people in the criminal justice system who believe prison is the only option, we can accomplish our purpose.Jim Stotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09484387651863003779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-71165671882094796812010-02-13T09:44:06.611-06:002010-02-13T09:44:06.611-06:007:58 - there are as many different reasons as ther...7:58 - there are as many different reasons as there are countries on the list with better outcomes than ours. However, if Britain, e.g., can have lower crime and incarcerate at about 20% of the per capita rate we do (<a href="http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/law/research/icps/downloads/wppl-8th_41.pdf" rel="nofollow">source</a>), then it's clear to me that ours is not the only way to achieve better public safety results.Gritsforbreakfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-37918727380736772662010-02-13T09:31:34.977-06:002010-02-13T09:31:34.977-06:00Steve: If you helped create the SAFPF system you ...Steve: If you helped create the SAFPF system you know that part of what is wrong is a flawed concept of rehabilitation, especially of alcohol and drug addicts. The "modified therapeutic community" stuff that TDCJ bought back in the 90's was a throwback to the 50's and 60's "insane asylum" era. It works on a communistic paradigm, which cultivates "snitching", collective punishment, sacrifice of individuality in favor of "community". The idea of rehabilitation over punishment was new at the time, (in Texas at least)and was very appealing as a concept. But, as often is the case, the devil was in the details. (implementation) Hardly anybody would argue that having 250 people sit in a chair facing the wall for 16 hours per day for several days straight, in order to get someone to cop to knowing who smuggled the contraband (cigarette) in, will make an addict commit to lifelong sobriety. I know everyone won't agree the "therapeutic community" concept is flawed. For one thing, because a variation of it is used in your CRTC facility, and I think that is a pretty good facility. But that is, IMO, because you DON'T do some of the things that the SAFPF's are infamous for. Thank you for conceding that the stories of abuses coming out of SAFPF have some element of believabilty. Indeed. Witnessing them firsthand sure made a believer out me. :-)Donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16902834245861000386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-90650574107870977842010-02-13T07:58:18.581-06:002010-02-13T07:58:18.581-06:00"Keep in mind, other countries don't inca..."Keep in mind, other countries don't incarcerate at nearly the rates we do, including many with much lower crime rates."<br /><br />Tell us more. What are the reasons for these countries having a lower crime rate?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-59503981769549508682010-02-13T07:54:56.010-06:002010-02-13T07:54:56.010-06:00Probation = rehabilitation
Prison = punishment
Pr...Probation = rehabilitation<br />Prison = punishment<br /><br />Probation+probation fees = surcharge which I believe most have a hard time paying and probably get hounded about.<br />Probation fees are like the DPS drivers license surcharge in this sense.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-83473698348251981672010-02-13T06:41:59.507-06:002010-02-13T06:41:59.507-06:00I have worked in the criminal justice field for ov...I have worked in the criminal justice field for over twenty years. Some offenders will not change their criminal activity no matter what a policeman, judge,or probation officer offers. These offenders are just comfortable with their life and consider their life just as normal as the law abiding citizen. I am not saying society should just give up but we need to recognize there are limitations.<br /><br />These offenders are for the most part not lazy. They have a job and that job is steal and hussle for your property. Many work more than an eight hour day and are awake early. This offender considers being arrested and incarcerated just part of their job description.<br /><br />The challenge is how to influence this life style. It is hard to make a difference but the criminal justice job is rewarding when the change happens.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-45919861980588149102010-02-13T03:33:10.461-06:002010-02-13T03:33:10.461-06:00Gritsforbreakfast wrote:
"... incarceration ...Gritsforbreakfast wrote:<br /><br />"... incarceration is easier for many offenders!" and that "probation has some punitive elements." <br /><br />I agree, but you only understand (it seems) the surface elements ( that which can be measured and reduced to statistics). Those who have been through the system may have a deeper understanding...see http://thehiddenevil.com/ as an example<br /><br /><br />Anon. 9:17 wrote: <br /><br />"...I agree in full with the series of articles published by the Austin Chronicle last year regarding the abuses and torture that go on at those facilities, particularly towards women, in the name of "treatment" and that I testified before Senator Whitmire about it."<br /><br />alot of this community supervision is outsourced (which means that there is a profit motive involved for catching you do something...or setting you up... so don't drink out of any containers unless YOU open it up...it might have been spiked with something), and anyone with connections to the police may be involved, from citizens in the neighborhood, whether they are good people or gang-members / mafia, to off-duty cops/prison guards and their relatives(often the same group since background checks are minimal)... so the same abuses that go inside of a facility can and do happen in the community, especially since the "tools" given to these invisible community-based prison gaurds who watch over you are increasingly high-tech, such as the Directed Energy Weapons (references below).<br /><br />I recommend that you dig into the website I listed above as a primer to understand what is going on. Here is a quote:<br /><br />"The public front portion of the program currently appears to emanate from a Department of Homeland Security initiative, known as, Citizen Corps. It is partnered with a National Neighborhood Watch program called, USAonWatch, which conducts citizen patrols. It is directed by FEMA, the FBI, & the National Sheriffs' Association. The public front is supported by individuals & groups of informants, that have no official ties to any state organization, & is also run by the FBI & other federal agencies. These federal agencies work directly with local governments to coordinate the activities of this colossal network. Other countries apparently have similar ones.<br /><br />The citizen patrols (Gang Stalking) are done under the guise of keeping an eye on internal threats to state security & cleaning up neighborhoods. As I'll demonstrate, this is exactly what the informant networks in East Germany & Russia were told when they were recruited into these state-sponsored programs. These are essentially global Psychological Warfare operations, done with the support of the civilian population. On the neighborhood level, despite claims of patriotism, the main reasons for their participation are empowerment & adventure."<br /><br />http://thehiddenevil.com/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8597101.post-50110073343493725452010-02-12T17:47:01.190-06:002010-02-12T17:47:01.190-06:004:11 wrote, "If you aren't trying to &quo...4:11 wrote, "If you aren't trying to "divert" property crime and drug offenders from prison, then who exactly are you trying to divert?"<br /><br />Where did I say I'm against diversion for those offenders? Again, you're arguing against a position neither I nor anyone here has taken. Ditto for your complaints (unrelated to anything written here) about first-time offenders, etc.. You're just arguing against a straw man created in your own head, not any position taken here. I feel no compulsion to defend positions I've never taken.<br /><br />As for, "I'd challenge you to tell me who is currently in prison that doesn't need to be there," let's start with crimes that have no victim. Nearly 20% of inmates are there on drug possession charges, most of them low-level. What's more, about 60% of current inmates are parole eligible and many of them don't need to be there. Also, failure to adjust theft levels for inflation means that every year people are sentenced to harsher punishments for the same crimes. And there are sick, elderly inmates who're costing taxpayers hundreds of thousands per year in medical costs who should receive medical parole. Finally, maybe your county doesn't regularly revoke on technicals, but that's not true everywhere. Bexar County, for example, has a terrible record on that score, and has sent many people to prison who shouldn't be there. That list should get you started; I could go on.<br /><br />Your own description is of a system that's not working, not changing behavior, and that's generally helpless to deal with noncompliant offenders. So if the status quo doesn't work, why resist innovations? Sending them to interim sanctions facilities or brief jail stints instead of revoking to a full prison term saves taxpayers' money and can't work out any worse than the current system, where to hear you tell it the reason folks are revoked is their PO says, "I'm frustrated, I don't know what to do, I give up," even though you acknowledge prison is often no solution, either. You seem to be saying, "The current system has failed so we must never do anything differently."<br /><br />Keep in mind, other countries don't incarcerate at nearly the rates we do, including many with much lower crime rates. We can always follow their leads. There is simply more than one way to skin this particular cat.Gritsforbreakfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10152152869466958902noreply@blogger.com