Welcome to Texas justice: You might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.
Friday, April 08, 2011
Prisons vs. Higher Ed?
Check out this PBS story about a new report from the NAACP criticizing the massive growth rate in state prison spending compared to higher education, including commentary from conservative anti-tax activist Grover Norquist:
The GEO Group is the 2nd largest private prison corp in TX & US; behind CCA. The pic is worth 1000 words http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=91331&p=irol-irhome
Shocker!! NAACP as well as other reform groups believe that whites spend money on prisons to keep blacks down. They view it as a form of social control.
Very unfortunate that we are in a position in Texas and US that we have to consider cutting funds from corrections or education. Ironic how no elected officials will man up and publicly associate shortage of revenue with all of the croocked azzholes like Bernie Madoff, Corrupt Real Estate and Financing parctices, Eron, and so on and so on... and taxpayers are expected to pay the note. It is also interesting that 60% of illegial aliens entering the United States immediately pillage and plunder welfare and social security. Yet no one dares bring up the costs assiciated with these issues. Why don't our elected officials connect our budget shortfall issues to the costs of such corruption rather than misplace the blame on legitimate government services like corrections and education? I expect we will see education and prisons cut while continuing to dole out the farewell checks and social security to illegal aliens and let gamblers continue to rip off our financial system.
8:41, how does that explain Grover Norquist's views?
9:25, a quick search on Louisiana's higher ed budgets shows you're full of it, see here.
JED, I'm with you on reining in the gamblers ripping off the financial system, but the study you're referencing claiming so many illegal immigrants are on "welfare" includes two things most people don't think of that way: Reduced-price school lunches for US-born children and payment for live-births at hospitals. Illegal immigrants do not routinely access Medicaid coverage or welfare programs in the traditional sense that give out ongoing support. So it's not that no one "dares" bring up the cost - many, like yourself, do so all the time - but that the sums involved are irrelevant, not REMOTELY big enough to explain the budget shortfall. That issue is a diversion from cutting the budget, not a strategy for it.
Its time to cut the welfare ripoffs in Texas. The illegals, and their families are killing Texas. They use lone star cards to get beer and CASH for whatever they want. This is plain stupid to allow this. After all the money wasted on education, can you just imagine how much is wasted in the prison system. Stop the anchor babies.
Quote "...but that the sums involved are irrelevant, not REMOTELY big enough to explain the budget shortfall. That issue is a diversion from cutting the budget, not a strategy for it"
So remote and irrelevant that we are trying to pass an ungodly expensive government healthcare bill.
Does the cost of court appointed representation of illegal immigrants also fall under "...irrelevant and remote costs?"
Does the cost of housing illegal immigrants in prison or jail also fall under "...irrelevant and remote costs?"
Does the cost of ER medical treatment of illegal immigrants also fall under "...irrelevant and remote costs?"
The sum may not be "big enough" when looking at one specific service area but when you look at all government services received by illegal immigrants it is significant and it is certainly relevant to budget shortages. It may not be a strategy in and of itself but it certainly should be part of the strategy. Would you agree?
Grits said: "9:25, a quick search on Louisiana's higher ed budgets shows you're full of it, see here."
No, Grits, you're full of it. Spend some time in LA like I did. (I lived and owned a business there.) The long time standing joke is that people come to LA for a great free medical care system and a great free college education, then they get the hell out as fast as they can. Just because they are now making some cuts doesn't mean the amount they spent on higher ed wasn't high. It was incredibly high, and still is.
JED, no I don't agree at all because your analysis ignores the BENEFITS to the economy from increased consumer demand, labor supply for key industries, etc..
These are not outweighed by any of the issues you name, some of which are red herrings. E.g., national health reform was MUCH more about insuring citizens than illegal immigrants, for whom the individual mandate is unenforceable. As for prisons, apponted counsel, etc., illegal immigrants commit far, FAR fewer crimes per capita than US citizens (not even close). And while there are local costs to hospitals and schools, the state Comptroller says that's outweighed by extra revenue to the state from sales taxes, etc..
Everybody's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.
As for 1:34, the linked article says "Louisiana's four-year colleges get less money on a per-pupil basis than any other Southern state." All you offer to counter that is your anonymous say-so. Thanks, but I'll listen to the folks who cite their sources and write under their own names.
Umm, by definition, aren't all illegal aliens criminals, Grits? Just out of curiosity, do you know of any research or data reflecting how many crimes are committed overall and per capita by illegals in Harris County? I know it's anecdotal, but it seems like every time you read the paper there sure are lots of crimes involving illegals.
I worked my way thru college in New Orleans and would love to know where this guy is getting his information about people going to college for "free" in Louisiana.
Show some proof.
And, the prisons vs schools issue is not "only" about black people...
OK, I see where the "remote and irrelevant sum of money" view is derived. Was not aware that the comptroller compares cost of services to illegal immigrants vs. goods consumed by illegal immigrants. Furthermore, was not aware that as long as llegal immigrants are consuming goods then the cost for services provided by our government are dismissed. Makes sense when comparing those two items side by side.
Am I safe to assume that this also means removing illegal immigrants from the subsidized support system and from the US could actually be harmful to our economy because it reduces consumption of goods?
By the way, really agree with the South bound border check article. VERY GOOD!
Grits said: "As for 1:34, the linked article says "Louisiana's four-year colleges get less money on a per-pupil basis than any other Southern state." All you offer to counter that is your anonymous say-so. Thanks, but I'll listen to the folks who cite their sources and write under their own names."
I appreciate that you like to deal in half-truths and biased research from long-distance swivel-chair experts to support your arguments, but the reason LA spends less than states like Texas is because they historically operate on the brink of bankruptcy. The best thing that happened to LA were the hurricanes, since they brought a lot of fed assistance money into the state coffers. However, the amount they spend on higher ed is a huge chunk of their piddly state budget. And now, they have suddenly discovered they can no longer afford it since the hurricane money is about gone.
The local addage in LA still stands, and it's as well-known as the sun rises in the east. People come to LA to get cured for free, get educated for free, and then they get the hell out before the high tax structure eats them alive.
Here is a brief list of some of the generous LA higher education programs:
•Louisiana Office of Student Financial Assistance — $200 to $2000 awarded each year to undergraduate students attending a Louisiana college.
•Louisiana Scholarship — Up to $1000 awarded each year to freshmen undergraduate students attending a Louisiana college.
•Robert C. Byrd Honors Scholarship-Louisiana — Up to $6000 awarded each year to one senior undergraduate student who is Louisiana resident.
•Tops Alternate Performance Award — Varied amount awarded each year to varied number of undergraduate students attending a Louisiana college.
•Tops Honors Award — Varied amount awarded each year to varied number of undergraduate students attending a Louisiana college.
•Tops Opportunity Award — $741 to $3094 awarded each year to undergraduate students attending a Louisiana college.
•Tops Performance Award — varied amount awarded each year to varied number of undergraduate students attending a Louisiana college.
•Tops Tech Award — $741 to $1592 awarded each year to freshmen or sophomore students attending a Louisiana college.
4:47, maybe you need to head back to Louisiana for some more education.
None of what you said mitigates the fact that "Louisiana's four-year colleges get less money on a per-pupil basis than any other Southern state." Nobody said they didn't spend ANY money on higher ed, so naming specific grant programs proves nothing. You earlier claimed Louisiana students get a "free college education" and the state subsidizes higher ed more than others, but that was simply false, and still is.
I'll try to make it simple for you, Grits. LA spends an incredibly large portion of its budget on higher ed. Still, their crime rate is nothing to write home about.
Maybe you need to get out more. Some of us have and do.
Really Grits. Louisiana's spending on higher ed as a percentage of their tax revenue is the 9th highest in the nation. That state spends a huge portion of their tax revenue on higher ed. In August of 2010, higher education in LA made up nearly 40 percent of the fulltime workforce in the executive branch of state government. Spending on higher ed vs spending on prisons has been an ongoing battle in that state also. But, you will notice that despite all their spending on higher ed, the crime rate in Louisiana is about 18% higher than the national average.
(Just another lucky soul who made it out of LA alive with money in their pocket.)
As a native of Louisiana and a graduate of the University of New Orleans I can say unequivocally that higher education in Louisiana IS NOT free. I paid dearly for every hour and every book.
As to undocumented workers accessing systems to help people who are down on their luck, sure some do but the Texas Comptroller published a report years ago that debunked the notion that they were a significant cause of financial problems in this state. http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/4387681.html
What don't you understand? Just because it is a large portion of Louisiana's budget does not mean it is a large amount of money that doesn't compare to other states. Its really not that complicated.
I don't know that spending more on higher education is really the answer. I think spending more on secondary education and alternative education/vocational training programs is really more likely produce a reduction in crime.
The GEO Group is the 2nd largest private prison corp in TX & US; behind CCA. The pic is worth 1000 words
ReplyDeletehttp://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=91331&p=irol-irhome
Shocker!! NAACP as well as other reform groups believe that whites spend money on prisons to keep blacks down. They view it as a form of social control.
ReplyDeleteLouisiana spends a ton of money on free higher ed. It doesn't seem to help reduce their crime rate.
ReplyDeleteVery unfortunate that we are in a position in Texas and US that we have to consider cutting funds from corrections or education. Ironic how no elected officials will man up and publicly associate shortage of revenue with all of the croocked azzholes like Bernie Madoff, Corrupt Real Estate and Financing parctices, Eron, and so on and so on... and taxpayers are expected to pay the note. It is also interesting that 60% of illegial aliens entering the United States immediately pillage and plunder welfare and social security. Yet no one dares bring up the costs assiciated with these issues. Why don't our elected officials connect our budget shortfall issues to the costs of such corruption rather than misplace the blame on legitimate government services like corrections and education? I expect we will see education and prisons cut while continuing to dole out the farewell checks and social security to illegal aliens and let gamblers continue to rip off our financial system.
ReplyDelete8:41, how does that explain Grover Norquist's views?
ReplyDelete9:25, a quick search on Louisiana's higher ed budgets shows you're full of it, see here.
JED, I'm with you on reining in the gamblers ripping off the financial system, but the study you're referencing claiming so many illegal immigrants are on "welfare" includes two things most people don't think of that way: Reduced-price school lunches for US-born children and payment for live-births at hospitals. Illegal immigrants do not routinely access Medicaid coverage or welfare programs in the traditional sense that give out ongoing support. So it's not that no one "dares" bring up the cost - many, like yourself, do so all the time - but that the sums involved are irrelevant, not REMOTELY big enough to explain the budget shortfall. That issue is a diversion from cutting the budget, not a strategy for it.
Its time to cut the welfare ripoffs in Texas. The illegals, and their families are killing Texas. They use lone star cards to get beer and CASH for whatever they want. This is plain stupid to allow this. After all the money wasted on education, can you just imagine how much is wasted in the prison system. Stop the anchor babies.
ReplyDeleteQuote "...but that the sums involved are irrelevant, not REMOTELY big enough to explain the budget shortfall. That issue is a diversion from cutting the budget, not a strategy for it"
ReplyDeleteSo remote and irrelevant that we are trying to pass an ungodly expensive government healthcare bill.
Does the cost of court appointed representation of illegal immigrants also fall under "...irrelevant and remote costs?"
Does the cost of housing illegal immigrants in prison or jail also fall under "...irrelevant and remote costs?"
Does the cost of ER medical treatment of illegal immigrants also fall under "...irrelevant and remote costs?"
The sum may not be "big enough" when looking at one specific service area but when you look at all government services received by illegal immigrants it is significant and it is certainly relevant to budget shortages. It may not be a strategy in and of itself but it certainly should be part of the strategy. Would you agree?
Undocumented aliens do not get lone star cards. Period.
ReplyDeleteGrits said:
ReplyDelete"9:25, a quick search on Louisiana's higher ed budgets shows you're full of it, see here."
No, Grits, you're full of it. Spend some time in LA like I did. (I lived and owned a business there.) The long time standing joke is that people come to LA for a great free medical care system and a great free college education, then they get the hell out as fast as they can. Just because they are now making some cuts doesn't mean the amount they spent on higher ed wasn't high. It was incredibly high, and still is.
JED, no I don't agree at all because your analysis ignores the BENEFITS to the economy from increased consumer demand, labor supply for key industries, etc..
ReplyDeleteThese are not outweighed by any of the issues you name, some of which are red herrings. E.g., national health reform was MUCH more about insuring citizens than illegal immigrants, for whom the individual mandate is unenforceable. As for prisons, apponted counsel, etc., illegal immigrants commit far, FAR fewer crimes per capita than US citizens (not even close). And while there are local costs to hospitals and schools, the state Comptroller says that's outweighed by extra revenue to the state from sales taxes, etc..
Everybody's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.
As for 1:34, the linked article says "Louisiana's four-year colleges get less money on a per-pupil basis than any other Southern state." All you offer to counter that is your anonymous say-so. Thanks, but I'll listen to the folks who cite their sources and write under their own names.
Umm, by definition, aren't all illegal aliens criminals, Grits? Just out of curiosity, do you know of any research or data reflecting how many crimes are committed overall and per capita by illegals in Harris County? I know it's anecdotal, but it seems like every time you read the paper there sure are lots of crimes involving illegals.
ReplyDeleteI worked my way thru college in New Orleans and would love to know where this guy is getting his information about people going to college for "free" in Louisiana.
ReplyDeleteShow some proof.
And, the prisons vs schools issue is not "only" about black people...
BB
OK, I see where the "remote and irrelevant sum of money" view is derived. Was not aware that the comptroller compares cost of services to illegal immigrants vs. goods consumed by illegal immigrants. Furthermore, was not aware that as long as llegal immigrants are consuming goods then the cost for services provided by our government are dismissed. Makes sense when comparing those two items side by side.
ReplyDeleteAm I safe to assume that this also means removing illegal immigrants from the subsidized support system and from the US could actually be harmful to our economy because it reduces consumption of goods?
By the way, really agree with the South bound border check article. VERY GOOD!
Grits said:
ReplyDelete"As for 1:34, the linked article says "Louisiana's four-year colleges get less money on a per-pupil basis than any other Southern state." All you offer to counter that is your anonymous say-so. Thanks, but I'll listen to the folks who cite their sources and write under their own names."
I appreciate that you like to deal in half-truths and biased research from long-distance swivel-chair experts to support your arguments, but the reason LA spends less than states like Texas is because they historically operate on the brink of bankruptcy. The best thing that happened to LA were the hurricanes, since they brought a lot of fed assistance money into the state coffers. However, the amount they spend on higher ed is a huge chunk of their piddly state budget. And now, they have suddenly discovered they can no longer afford it since the hurricane money is about gone.
The local addage in LA still stands, and it's as well-known as the sun rises in the east. People come to LA to get cured for free, get educated for free, and then they get the hell out before the high tax structure eats them alive.
Here is a brief list of some of the generous LA higher education programs:
•Louisiana Office of Student Financial Assistance — $200 to $2000 awarded each year to undergraduate students attending a Louisiana college.
•Louisiana Scholarship — Up to $1000 awarded each year to freshmen undergraduate students attending a Louisiana college.
•Robert C. Byrd Honors Scholarship-Louisiana — Up to $6000 awarded each year to one senior undergraduate student who is Louisiana resident.
•Tops Alternate Performance Award — Varied amount awarded each year to varied number of undergraduate students attending a Louisiana college.
•Tops Honors Award — Varied amount awarded each year to varied number of undergraduate students attending a Louisiana college.
•Tops Opportunity Award — $741 to $3094 awarded each year to undergraduate students attending a Louisiana college.
•Tops Performance Award — varied amount awarded each year to varied number of undergraduate students attending a Louisiana college.
•Tops Tech Award — $741 to $1592 awarded each year to freshmen or sophomore students attending a Louisiana college.
4:47, maybe you need to head back to Louisiana for some more education.
ReplyDeleteNone of what you said mitigates the fact that "Louisiana's four-year colleges get less money on a per-pupil basis than any other Southern state." Nobody said they didn't spend ANY money on higher ed, so naming specific grant programs proves nothing. You earlier claimed Louisiana students get a "free college education" and the state subsidizes higher ed more than others, but that was simply false, and still is.
I'll try to make it simple for you, Grits. LA spends an incredibly large portion of its budget on higher ed. Still, their crime rate is nothing to write home about.
ReplyDeleteMaybe you need to get out more. Some of us have and do.
Sorry, I could spend my nights sleeping outdoors and it won't make Louisiana's per-student university spending any higher.
ReplyDeleteWhy are folks with lone star cards allowed to get beer and cash? Others without this benefit can't afford these things.
ReplyDeleteReally Grits. Louisiana's spending on higher ed as a percentage of their tax revenue is the 9th highest in the nation. That state spends a huge portion of their tax revenue on higher ed. In August of 2010, higher education in LA made up nearly 40 percent of the fulltime workforce in the executive branch of state government. Spending on higher ed vs spending on prisons has been an ongoing battle in that state also. But, you will notice that despite all their spending on higher ed, the crime rate in Louisiana is about 18% higher than the national average.
ReplyDelete(Just another lucky soul who made it out of LA alive with money in their pocket.)
As a native of Louisiana and a graduate of the University of New Orleans I can say unequivocally that higher education in Louisiana IS NOT free. I paid dearly for every hour and every book.
ReplyDeleteAs to undocumented workers accessing systems to help people who are down on their luck, sure some do but the Texas Comptroller published a report years ago that debunked the notion that they were a significant cause of financial problems in this state. http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/4387681.html
What don't you understand? Just because it is a large portion of Louisiana's budget does not mean it is a large amount of money that doesn't compare to other states. Its really not that complicated.
ReplyDeleteI don't know that spending more on higher education is really the answer. I think spending more on secondary education and alternative education/vocational training programs is really more likely produce a reduction in crime.
ReplyDelete