About 130 jobs will be eliminated from the McLennan County State Juvenile Correctional Facility in Mart after the Texas Youth Commission has a third round of staff reductions to respond to a drop in the number of youths incarcerated.
The cut will lay off 13 workers, and the rest of the reduction will come from scrapping open positions at the facility, according to a press release Tuesday. Jim Hurley, spokesman for TYC, said the cuts are mainly for caseworker and administrative positions and will not eliminate corrections officers. ...
Since Executive Commissioner Cherie Townsend took over TYC in October 2008, the agency has cut 720 positions statewide to match its decreasing youth population, reducing costs by $25 million.
TYC’s youth population has significantly decreased since 2007 reforms under which only the state’s most serious or chronic felony-level offenders were committed, the press release stated. The reforms followed increased state scrutiny after allegations of sexual abuse of inmates in the TYC system. ...
About 110 positions also were cut from the West Texas State School in Pyote, including 67 employee layoffs. ...
Both facilities will take fewer youths to maintain the current 12-to-1 youth-to-officer ratio, officials said. The West Texas school will be limited to 48 youths.
Good luck to those who've recently lost their jobs at TYC, and for that matter, to Cherie Townsend and her management team who appear to be making the tough decisions needed to reorganize the troubled agency before the Legislature does it for them.
In spite of all the rhetoric about concern for the kids, the bottom line is that it is all about bottom line. How many cutbacks have the legislators made? I think we should shut down the hidden underground offices behind the state capital building. If anyone thinks these cuts fix anything, he or she is being decieved.
ReplyDeleteGrits -
ReplyDeleteI continue to hear mixed messages about the 1:12 staffing ratio. The agency makes it sound like (and the legislature seems to accept) that this goal is being met and will continue to be met even with the current staffing cuts. I hope this is true. I was largely responsible for calculating the staffing needed to meet a 1:12 ratio back when SB103 was being developed and initially implemented in 2006 and 2007. I repeatedly asked relevent leaders at that time what we really meant by 1:12. I'm a numbers guy and I know how easy it is to twist numbers and lie with statistics. Everyone I spoke to, including Mr. Kimbrough and Senator Hinojosa, supported the interpretation that it meant if you have more than 12 youth in a given location at a given time, then you will have more than one staff with them, more than 24 youth, then more than two staff, etc. I asked them if that was what they meant because that is the minimum I believed was needed to improve safety for staff and youth. This kind of legitimate 1:12 cannot be calculated as a facility average and you cannot include staff covering the gatehouse, watching a couple of youth in security, or doing transportation around campus in the ratio. If you do it that way, we had 1:12 before they ever thought of SB103 and the legislature accomplished nothing in this regard. I sincerely hope the present administration is committed to ensuring a legitimate and consistent 1:12 ratio, although I hear from current staff what sound like flawed calculation techniques and therefore posibly misleading statistics coming from TYC. I hope this is incorrect and I hope that the legislature will stand by their "tough talk" from a couple of years ago now that they have seen what proper staffing levels can cost. I'm curious from other TYC staff - do you see them calculating the staffing ratios properly? Are you seeing groups larger than 12 youth still being left with 1 staff at times? SB103 was supposed to stop that. Has it really?
-Don Brantley
I can tell you that at the facility I am at it is a very strict 12-1. Even if their is an event where several dorms are present we maintain the 12-1 ratio.
ReplyDelete1:12 may sound good on paper. However in practice you need more staff to cover vacations, sick time, days off, training and other activities that keep staff from the dorm. That's why there is a minimum number to keep the doors open and an optimum level to cover ongoing operations. Where is TYC staffing with the RIF.
ReplyDeleteAlso: Management does still take care of it's own at TYC. At the WTSS rif, one Program Administrator position was eliminated. However he was demoted / offered a JCO 6 position and a JCO 6 was rif'ed instead. I can't find in policy where you can bump people in other positions during a rif and save yourself by taking their job.
You definetly show your commitment to treatment, when you lay off case managers, who are potential treatment providers and place your emphisis on security only. Several years ago TYC internal audit looked at the ratios and recomended /determined that smaller youth to casemanager ratios were needed.
ReplyDeleteLooks like a continuance of the wink wink nudge nudge, look at how much treatment we provide, just don't look too close.
Will they continue to expect case managers to fill in gaps in JCO staffing to allow for sick time, training, etc? That's another way to determine if the focus on treatment is real or back to where we were a few years ago.
ReplyDeleteThe ratio used to be 1:10 and we tried hard to stick to it. The ideal was to have at least three staff on a dorm. Caseworkers could be counted as staff sometimes as I recall when we were on the dorm for froup. Which was two hours in the morning and two hours in the afternoon. That was at my facility. However, I'm certain the 1:10 ratio was the standard back in 1995.
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure that there have been more than 13 rifs at Mart. I was thinking they got about 14 this time. The first time, a couple of months ago they rifed a good many but ended up having to bring a good many of them back. The caseworkers are the ones they seem to be targeting and how the decide who stay and who goes is anybody's. They kept some caseworkers, like the thinking room caseworker who has no caseload and rifed a sex offender caseworker and some other with caseloads.
I can tell you that it will be next to impossible to deliver group services, return parent calls, prepare release packets, type assessments, go to special services, place kids on BMP, enter data, do Icps, mail parent letters and fill in chronologicals, work visitation, cover security, crovide 45 mintues of counsleing to each youth at least once a month and do all the other things caseworkers have to do. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see how they can. I guess I should explain the abbreviations-BMP-behavior management plan, ICP-individual case plans, chronos-chronologicaal records. I didn't mention PAT, Phase assessment team meeting because I don't think they call them that anymore but I know they are sill being done. Something else, I don't think anyone mentioned that Mart I was already down at least two caseworkers that resigned recently. They got out before their numbers came up. Anyway that means they lost lost around 7 or 8 caseworkers on Mart I. I'm not sure about side II, but it's at least 6. I think rifed caseworkers last day will be sometime in March. Either way you can imagine what that does to the ones that are left. They are thinking their time is coming so most of them are trying to get other jobs now. The big problem is that the ones calling the shots and making the rules really have no idea what they are doing. They say they are increasing and improving treatment programs nd looking to hire licensed sex therapists but their actions show the opposite. Now they say that they are freezing all new positions so that's not going to happen. Let's face it, if they were still hiring, who in their right mind would want to work there? What a total mess! The sad part about it is not one person responsible for creating this giant fluster cuck will ever be held accountable. In the private sector they would all get canned, legistors down for outrageously gross mismanagement. They know not what they do. TYC was a good place and they have have just destroyed it without giving any thought to what they might do next.
I can't write anymore, I don't work there and it depresses me, I can only imagine how the employees feel. It would be nice if Ms. Townsend would show some courage and stop spinning the ugly truth. That is just adding insult to injury. I would just like to say to Whitmire and all the rest shame on you for the way you've destroyed TYC and please stay out of the private sector, You guys could really jack some businesses up. Stay in the public sector where you all can be successful failures.
Great to see 2 new strings for TYC and better yet, all legitimate postings. A few comments:
ReplyDeleteFirst is a new metaphore for one size does not fit all. In the past, I have noted that the early experience with boot camps (and Ropes, Wilderness Challenge etc) was positive, probably because kids and staff were carefully selected. Once the early records reports came in, boot camps were mandated, usually by the legislature. Surprise, doesn't work that way. (Here comes the new metaphore): if ALL state business was being done on this basis, West Texas could expect massive expenditures to prevent beach erosion and repair hurricane damage, 'cause its working in Galveston.
#2 Why doesn't mainstream media (or Scott) challenge Whitmire on his continuing misrepresentations? He specifically repeated statements that WTSS couldn't get or keep treatment professionals while supporting the actions that had 2 laid off and that nearest treatment professionals had to drive a hundred miles (the current clinical director has to ride his bicycle all the way across the parking lot from his house). If current postings are to be believed, there may be at least a couple of other influences: there are postings for ACP IV's(masters level psychs). The ACP III's is supposedly the top of the career ladder. If this is not a misprint, it always is more difficult to get and keep people if they can get paid better next door for the same job. As to attracting professionals, such as chemical dependency counselors, WTSS has never been allowed to seek such positions. The current licensed staff has supervisory status, so attracting staff who need the experience may not be so difficult.
And finally, legislative complaints about UTMB using teleconference procedures for psychiatric intervention seems to beg the question: how can legislators represent their districts if they are in Austin? Doesn't it require personal contact to know what the constituents want, how they are responding etc? As facetious as the above comment is, they have to remember, TYC kids grew up with television, cellphones, portable computers, facebook etc... their sense of communication and contact is not the same as it is for adults.
Without a doubt the good ship TYC is sinking, be it more slowly than I imagined. What can anyone possibly expect when the people calling the shots have no education or experience in what they are trying to manage. It would be simular to me trying to fly a 757 jet liner with a very predictable outcome.
ReplyDeleteFTM
We are using CWs in the count (from their offices) and sometimes a "rover" for multiple dorms to get the 1:12. Typical TYC
ReplyDeleteAs the illustrious Whitmire was screaming that WTSS cannot hire any professionals, the letter to RIF two psychologists was being typed. The 31st of March is their last day!! I have to stop, my fingers want to get really ughly!!
ReplyDeleteThis TYC mess is long from over. Don, you know the facilities are playing with the numbers. I doubt many of them are strictly going by the 1:12 ratio. I encourage all of you to remember this fiasco when the Governor comes up for re-election. He has done nothing to fix the issues at TYC, and the reform has failed miserably. Please Whitmire put TYC out of its misery.
ReplyDelete9:02, is that Dimitria??
ReplyDeleteI believe your time has come and gone, leave Whitmire alone it appears he has become more aggressive since you left. What ever happened to the Bronco as I am musing the past history of TYC history and the real reason TYC is in the shape it's in.
I know for a fact now that there have been more than 13 rifs at Mart already and they were told today that there would be more. I try my best to accurate, If I'm wrong, I stand corrected. Let me assure all that there is no need to exaggerate or misrepresent the truth. It's ugly enough as it is and just continues to get uglier.
ReplyDeleteI honestly don't understand why Townsend and company continue to lie. What's the point of it all. As depressing as it must be for the employees I'm sure at this point they would feel a little better hearing the truth from the source. How can so many people be so arrogant and reckless. They haven't a clue what they are doing yet they forge ahead, just ripping the agency to shreds. I don't even work at TYC anymore and I feel like there has been a death. I can't write because I know when it's time to stop. I just have a couple of requests and comments.
Ms. Townsend, please stop prevaricating and stop telling your people not to read grits for breakfast.
Mr. Whitmire, just don't do anything, try lisntening to some real experts. You are not an expert on juvenile corrections.
Mr. Harrell, please stop pontificating and start listening to some real experts.You are not an expert on juvenile corrections.
Please all of you let a real pilot fly the plane.
Amid all the bad news, something good may have happened at the Al Price unit. A long-ignored peice of administrative dead wood was transferred out of education to another unit, and two excellent people (one from Austin) were moved in to assist a few key people in education who were holding out until the cavalry arrived. The goal: fix the education program at Al Price. I'll have to admit, this is the first time I have ever seen this many key people who were good at their job in one unit at the same time. And, word is they were promised resources and support to make it happen. I know four of these people, and their resumes' and reputations for getting the job done are impressive. Let's see if those in Austin will give these people what they need to make it happen, or will they just continue to expect these people to spin gold out of straw.
ReplyDelete11:12,
ReplyDeleteIt was Vicki Spriggs who told the county probation officers not to read Grits, not Cherie Townsend. I assume all of your other "facts" are equally well-researched.
11:12
ReplyDeleteYou "stand corrected."
How can you tell 11:12 that they stand corrected. ll:12 did not say anything about the meeting. Word may be coming down through the administration about it...not the meeting. If that is the case, then 11:12 can say so., then tell them they stand corrected if it is in regards to statements at the meeting.
ReplyDelete651....Do you not think three psychologists were a bit much for WTSS? Talk about state waste. Do you think all three should continue at WTSS for the little they provided to youth?
ReplyDeleteDirty Harry, that’s the best news I’ve seen about tyc regarding al price, I have seen some post about the assistant principal if I remember correctly, she is a real team playa according to some of y’alls post.
ReplyDelete“A long-ignored piece of administrative dead wood was transferred out of education to another unit”
But here is what’s puzzling to me, as someone who does professional house cleaning from time to time, in the midst of all this downsizing in tyc is that this pos was transferred to another unit. Your management is letting the 12:1 people go and your transferring a well known “administrative dead wood” pos to another unit? The only explanation I could think of is that person must be a bfo40, it’s hard enough to get rid of those people in the free enterprise and you people are a government agency where that type of work ethic just flourish’s. And of course being tyc, the state sponsored agency with a 120 year culture of covering up child abuse through its good ol boy team playa system of management I suppose the tax payers of the great state of Texas should be glad that this “administrative dead wood” pos is was not promoted to ed and is running the agency.
Sheldon tyc#47333 II c/s
Don we miss you! You are a good man and you were an asset to our agency.
ReplyDeleteIt is time to expose Sheldon for the racist he is...
ReplyDelete"that person must be a bfo40, it’s hard enough to get rid of those people in the free enterprise and you people are a government agency where that type of work ethic just flourish’s"
you just lost whatever semblance of something called respect I had for you.
9:02, says you are so far off if you think I am that incompetent Dimetria Pope. If I was, I would be singing the Governor's praises, hell he padded Pope's retirement fund, and allowed her to waste thousands of state dollars to be comfortable in her TYC office while she screwed up TYC far worse than what it was prior to the "reform". I just know that Whitmire will have his way, and TYC is doomed. Yes, I know that many of you continue to think that TYC will always have to exist, but I am telling you, if Whitmire, and many more of the Legislators have their way, there will be hundreds of more RIFs and facility closures. Best of luck to those that wish to ride out the remainder of the TYC storm. You haven't even reached the eye.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 2/27/2009 09:41:00 PM said...
ReplyDelete"It is time to expose Sheldon for the racist he is..."
There's nothing racist about the truth. What is racist, is playing the race card in an attempt to discredit the truth.
207-154 and its coming to a unit that has the Same problems that it was creating in AP. Now go figure that is a good move?
ReplyDeletePlaying the race card is what started al this mess in the first place. The sex abuse at WTSS was initiated and covered by three of the worse administrators ever in TYC, and their cohorts. It still goes on and has effected the entire agency. Go figure.
ReplyDeleteNo one is playing spades. Just speaking clearly about his opinion that black females over 40 have a poor work ethic. That is what the man said. That is racist, THAT is also truth.
ReplyDeleteI am not a black female, but I do not believe that you can put every bfo40 in that mix, just as you can not label every wfo40 in that group. So forth with men.
ReplyDeleteIf this was a true statement, then you have to say everybody on this earth is a sex offender, lazy idiot,so on.One or two bad apples does not make the entire apple tree bad.
So the statements made could be considered racial, but it can not be considered the TRUTH.
Will someone please file the bill as Sunset recommended and get rid of both agencies? It is time to start fresh. Vivki needs to go, all the wasted administration at TYC needs to go. Get the kids help on the front end, not the post programs and or TYC.
ReplyDeleteTYC is soooo tainted that the entire employee group should be rif'ed. This is the only way that a new agency can get a fresh start and survive. Those still in TYC, even if not abusers, fail to understand that there are abusers still all around the agency. This simple minded - deny it and it will go away, is what caused the original problems. ALL employees should be let go. There's no other answer. Assign all of them to the new crisis - CPS.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 2/28/2009 03:41:00 PM said:
ReplyDelete"So the statements made could be considered racial, but it can not be considered the TRUTH."
They are the truth as far as this individual is concerned. The HR dept at Al Price let it slip to several people that that was the reson they never fired her. She was black, and threatened to sue if they did.
In general many misuse their skin color to gain attention or favor over others, whether they deserve it or not. The pendelum needs to swing back to theother side, since so many have been sacrificed for the 'old poor me' current status. Its caused the collapse of our finincial economy.
ReplyDelete8:38 Oh I did not dispute that this was true about this person, it was putting labels on all bfo40.
ReplyDeleteIf the rumors are true, We will get to witness this first hand. GEE,dread that one.
What is really sad about this world today that we live in and work in is that people tend to use race as a way to identify others, esp. in TYC.
ReplyDeleteThe other day I over heard some talking about someone. They identified the person as "the white guy". I found that to be so ignorant that you must use the color of someone's skin to speak about a human being.
A simple "that guy" would have done, there was no need to say "white guy" or "black guy" or Mexican guy" if you do not know their name. I found this to be so sad that people refer to each other in this manner. What ever they were talking about, the color of his skin did not matter. It would not change the topic, the gossip, or the outcome of the situation. Human beings is what we all are. What race we are does not matter at all.
On the other side of that coin, race is an excellent way to identify criminals, or people being sought in criminal investigations. I get really perturbed at news sources who blurt out requests like: "..police need your help in locating a man, 6'2", 200 lbs, and black hair."
ReplyDeleteDuh, hey, if you really want to make it easy for the public to help, stop with the political correctness and tell me what color or race he is so I can automatically screen out vast groups of the population!
In regard to the person in question and others like her, it's not everyone else who plays the race card, they play the race card themselves in order to achieve "victim" staus. If she had been white, she would have been canned long ago. After spending some time in this persons presence, it makes me wonder if race wasn't how she got her job in the first place. In my opinion, she doesn't even have any business with a teaching certificate. It's the preferential treatment this person recieved that created any racism, makes other employees resentful, and keeps perpetuating the problem. To them, the racism is their advantage. They want it to happen. It's their badge of honor, and they milk it for every penny.
10:16 a.m. AMEN, you hit the nail on the head and anyone who has their head buried in the sand should justafiably drown in it. We are tired of them playing the race card to be the "victim." The I didn't get this job because of my color, not because they weren't qualified but because of their race. Sick, sick, sick! How many of you out there have constantly heard this song & dance for years?
ReplyDeleteExactly. And, the old, 'you don't understand, you weren't a slave', crap. That was long, long ago and some blacks sold other blacks. Get over it. We-America can't pay for your 'victim' status forever. Many other races had problems also, but do not milk America dry.
ReplyDeletedoes anyone have any examples that others might look for in this person on the job?
ReplyDeleteBecause TYC has been smeared by a self serving media, and self serving politicians doesn't mean that what people say is all true. To make a statement that both agencie should be disolved and the problem dealt with on the front is completely irresponsible. What front end? There won't be one. For those of you who support that notion, how would you like to have you safety protected?
ReplyDeleteTell me what agency is perfect. If you believe TYC should be abolished because you think there are still abusers there than you must support the abolishment of TDCJ, all police dedpartments, sheriff's offices, DPS, ATF, FBI,CIA, etc... Your logic should apply to every business, agency, and entity everywhere. Should a bank close because there are some employees there that have stolen funds? Should the grocery store close because checkers steal? Do any of you truly think about the implications of the things you say? Do you bother to research the facts before you speak? Do you consider the employees or how many lives would be effected if those agencies were to close. TDCJ has had many more huge scandals that TYC could ever have. What does anyone care about anymore? People die all the time in TYC and often it goes unreported. That is not true at all of TYC. Do your homework. I don't want any of you to be unnecessarily removed from your jobs. I don't get off on stoning and condemning others. Haven't most of you out there known unethical employees at your jobs? Haven't most of experienced bad managers, dishonest, dirty bosses and questionable business practices that mislead and dupe customers? Places that sell inferior goods for an elevated prices. how many of you are conpletely honest on the job? Ever lied on a time sheet? Called in sick when you weren't? Taken home items that belong to your employer? How many of you tell sexist and racist jokes on the job? Make fun of your customers and or co-workers? Any of you ever fail to report wrong doing because it involved a buddy? TYC is being smeared by the media and politicians for less than honorable reasons and many of you are eager to jump on the band wagon. We needn't ever wonder how societies have engaged in atrocities through out history. Witch hunts, Hilter, slavery, lynch mobs, the KKK, looting, etcc. the mentality is the same.
TYC has been blackballed. TYC is no longer popular, because the popular philosphy regarding crime and criminals has changed. TYC is no longer P.C. Those that care about being labeled as Politically incorrect(journalists, media, politicians etc) won't touch it with a ten ft poll. They either avoid it or speak out against it.
ReplyDeleteThe notion about crime has changed, but not the abuse of prisoners, even TYC youth. That will take many years to get over. IOt was bad enough when youth were abused but when the top leaders covered it up, that's whay brought the public outcry for reforms. Similar, a few people, cause the race gap to widen. When a few misuse their 'victim status' too much the public gets angry and a backlash will occur. Its time for us to act the same and be equal, and stop the 'oh, please sorry for me' attitude. We're out of money...get a job, we can't keep supporting all of you that won't work.
ReplyDeleteLike many other agencies and organizations, individuals get promoted to positions of authority based on who they know, or their willingness to keep their mouths shut and follow instructions or both. Individuals wih a strong moral compass and an independent, innovative spirits are what management is looking to hire. This is a major flaw in the system. TYC does it, TDCJ does, the govenor does it, and it's deadly. Because management is bad doesn't mean that all of the employees are bad. The lower down in the ranks are where you find many, many dedicated employees who deplore what goes on above. Still, the attitudes of management trickle down. As they say Poop runs down hill. Everyone passes the buck down. Tyc was certainly at the helm of very poor leadership that made some stupid, cowardly, short sighted decisions. The WTSS scandal was terrible, but the agency was and is undeserving of the death march launched against it. Many, many employees reported what was happening there. It was looked over and ignored. Instead of Dwight Harris having the courage to step foward and say here it is this is what happened and we will to deal with it, he was a coward, and panicked. That was folly, but undeserving of this mess. TYC is now in the hands of worse management and the agency is in worse shape that it has ever been. It has been placed in the hands of people with no experience or knowledge and they are just running it into the ground. What a shame. The youth are not getting the right kinds of services and the employees are being treated like inhumanely. This whole thing was totally unnecessary. I just find it alarming how easy it is for the media and ploiticians to totally destroy an organization and convince many others that it is for the good of all.
ReplyDeleteI just happen to believe that everyone has rights, even the those that are not incarcerated. I also believe in finding out the truth for myself. It is horrible that TYC staff tried and tried to report the WTSS abuse issue only to have it fall on deaf ears. Even Perry's office ignored it. I in no way support abusing prisoners or anyoneelse. I do question why people don't seem to care much about the adult system abuses which are rampant and go on daily. The prisoners rape eachother, the staff has sex with the prisoners, the prisoners attack each each other and the staff attack the prisoners. Prisoners gt paid by staff to attack other prisoners or staff. The adult system is an ugly, ugly mess. People die in there and it doesn't get reported. It amazes me. They are getting more money for their guards. Now TYC had relatively few instances of that going on, especially when the rules were strict and designed to protect youth and staff. It was just a whole difeerent ball game. We dd not like people to transfer from the adult system into TYC because of the way they treated youth. They usually didn't last long. I won't say they were all bad becasue that's not true, but generally it was. Similarly, the adult system hated for employees to transfer there from the juvenile system because they said they were too nice too the prisoners. I believe in holding people accountable for their actions no matter who they are. This is how we learn to make it in the world. we do not do anyone any favors by coddling and making excuses for them. Being firm and holding people accountable is not abusive, it is benevolent.
ReplyDeleteYou said it, 8:23 a.m. I remember the irony of TDCJ investigators pawing through our files while inmates in a nearby prison unit were murdering their cellmates. I notice how many residents of the state schools for the retarded and mentally ill DIE every year, yet no one suggests cover-up, corruption, or mismanagement.
ReplyDeleteThe heavenly bodies of politics, grievance, and selfishness aligned perfectly in 2007 to produce the lynching of an agency doing its best to fulfill the job laid out with the meager resources provided by our elected officials.
XTYC
2/27/2009 09:41:00 PM
ReplyDeleteThe hardest person to get rid of is the black female over forty and the easy is the white male under forty. It’s what HR people have told me now for a decade. I have worked with bfo40 and would never single out that category as below average because that’s simply not true. I just said that if a member of that demographic was in your face a looser it’s difficult to get rid of them. Like I said I get called in to do house cleaning from time to time and like with any system you have to know how it works to get your job done. Its simple people engineering.
Sheldon tyc#47333 II C/s
This is such a hot/sensitive subject and the 'victims' know this so they take even more advantage of their status. Many even want America to pay for their victim status forever...in money or welfare.
ReplyDeleteI just want someone to send some JCO help to Mart 1. I'm tired of working 12 hr. shifts. And to DR. Brantley, yes we always abide by the 1:12 ratio in Mart 1. No one staff is ever alone with more than 12 kids. That is why we work so many 12 hour shifts. Someone has to do something to help us and getting rid of JCO posistions is not the answer. We need help!
ReplyDeleteYou're not the only site doing 12 hour shifts, so stop the gripping. You can resign or join the Austin gang of money wasters. No welfare either we're tired of all these folks on welfare.
ReplyDelete