Tuesday, September 01, 2009

CPS raid on Houston's underage moms would dwarf Great Eldorado Polygamist Roundup

Here are a few disparate items to chew on this morning:

Get ready for the CPS raid on Houston
Last year Texas' CPS accompanied by dozens of armed police raided the YFZ Ranch and seized more than 400 children on the sole basis that some of the children had allegedly been married and impregnated as young as 14 (a practice that was legal in Texas with parental consent until 2005). Much to-do was made about how the mere presence of underage pregnant kids necessitated a full-blown military response and mass-seizure of every child within arms-reach. How much more justified, then, would the state be to raid the City of Houston, which leads the nation in the number of pregnancies under age 15? And just as happened at Eldorado, shouldn't the state seize everyone else's kids, too, because they live in a community that tolerates such behavior? If that approach was good enough in the Great Eldorado Polygamist Roundup, after all ...

No Mas! Sheriffs fear immigration enforcement too much to handle
Some Texas border sheriffs are balking at suggestions by the federal Department of Homeland Security that they take on immigration enforcement duties. The Cameron County Sheriff said “There’s not enough jail space to support it.”

Tagged: Offenses added to criminal records with no conviction
Several bloggers have pointed out this Wall Street Journal piece about Texas' new law, promoted vigorously at the Lege by Dallas District Attorney Craig Watkins, tagging in criminal records offenders whose DNA was identified in old rape cases even if the statute of limitations has run out and they couldn't be prosecuted. While this novel concept raises some due process concerns, in practice it can be expected to apply in only a small number of cases.

Kicking a judge out of the club (No, not Sharon Keller)
Reacting to the indictment of a sitting Republican judge in Houston because of "unwelcome sexual advances" to a defendant and the Houston DA's search for additional witnesses, Mark Bennett asks, "Want Revenge? Gain? Attention? Be a Witness!." I guess Don Jackson must not be part of The DA's "Judges Club" that Murray Newman wrote about.

Send 'em straight home
Over the next year TDCJ must begin releasing offenders either from the unit where they served or through regional release facilities instead of siphoning everyone back through Huntsville, reports the Austin Statesman's Mike Ward, who quoted state Sen. John Whitmire declaring, "It's been nuts to take prisoners from 112 units and haul them all the way back to Huntsville from El Paso, then let them out and buy them a bus ticket back to El Paso. This change represents a huge step forward. There's no reason for that long ride back to Huntsville to continue." TDCJ officials say the policy will likely be implemented sooner than later.

Search policies on laptops at the border
CrimProf blog rounds up links on new US policies for searching laptops at border crossings, noting that "The Ninth Circuit has ruled that the constitution does not preclude warrantless and suspicionless searches of laptop computers at the border." ACLU has called for policies limiting laptop searches to cases with "individualized suspicion." At present, though, according to this DOJ press release, only a small number of travelers are searched: "Between Oct. 1, 2008, and Aug. 11, 2009, CBP encountered more than 221 million travelers at U.S. ports of entry. Approximately 1,000 laptop searches were performed in these instances—of those, just 46 were in-depth."

SCOTUS CrimLaw summary in 5 pages
Via White Collar Crime Prof Blog, see this excellent summary from BNA (pdf) of US Supreme Court decisions from the last term dealing with criminal law. Bottom line: It's easier for the state to pursue RICO charges. Requiring cross-examination of forensics will create not-insurmountable headaches in about 2/3 of states (though not Texas). SCOTUS hates the exclusionary rule, or at least five of them do (especially the Chief Justice). Sloppy police databases are fine when they result in illegal searches: Accidents happen! Similarly, supervisors are immune from civil suits if they fail to train prosecutors under them about their Brady obligations to disclose exculpatory evidence to the defense.

70 comments:

Big Tex said...

The linked article said Houston is #1 in 14-and-under pregnancies but Dallas is #1 in the nation for teens with MULTIPLE pregnancies. Give Big D some credit!

Soronel Haetir said...

And would probably result in more public good if it actually happened.

Anonymous said...

If living in Houston (or Dallas) was a belief frowned upon, by the "normal" citizens of Texas, there might be action taken.

I've seen so many hide from the truth on this topic by blaming the increase on the Hispanic population, so it's not a problem for the "normal".

kbp ;)

Anonymous said...

Grits,

I posted the following question on our Blog about Wiccans and never got a response. I posted a related on on Coram Non Judice and got the response that in essence says the 9th Circuit opinions get overturned so often that everybody ignores them and besides which this situation is different. What is your take on this one?

"Way off topic but a question about the Federal Appeals court ruling on the MLB steroid tests that I don't know where else to ask. How (if at all) would this ruling (which appears to me to say that info taken about people not directly named in warrents is off limits) apply to all of the info taken in the YFZ / FLDS ranch raid?"

Gritsforbreakfast said...

2:09, I don't know the answer and of course a 9th Circuit ruling doesn't control here, anyway. A lot of SCOTUS Fourth Amendment rulings are VERY fact specific, especially recent ones, so it's hard to draw generalized conclusions.

Anonymous said...

Thanks.

Jam Inn said...

Grits the legal definition of a child in Texas, unchanged by more recent changes in the law, has been 16 years and younger. There is a teen-age pregnancy epidemic in America and which city leads in this statistic may be Houston but does that equate to the FLDS Church celestially marrying children? It's a reach at best by you but you ignored the other facts/law. An underage child 16years or younger can't be given parental permission to marry into bigamy, without the parents committing a third degree felony, for instance Bishop F. Merril and Barbara Jessop (parents) to Merrianne Jessop whom was married by her father to the Prophet Warren S. Jeffs. Both Prophet Jeffs and Bishop Jessop are now indicted, yet remain leaders within the FLDS Church sect? The change in minimum age to marry from 14 years to 16 years brings Texas into alignment with the majority of States and eliminated a legal anomaly, is that not a legislative function to update statutes to reflect modern values than outmoded ones? Liking the YFZ Ranch compound to the community of Houston is a ridiculous analogy and beyond a serious comment. Suffice it to point out that the YFZ Ranch population was moved into Texas from Utah, a population in excess of 550+ Adults and children which roughly equates to 20-25% of the existing Schleicher County population and intended to overwhelm local officials and law enforcement. The "Dirty Dozen" come to trial soon and the organized crime spree will be exposed even further.

Jam Inn said...

Now eat your grits before they get even colder when it comes to reflecting upon the TRUTH!

Gritsforbreakfast said...

Jam Inn, re teen pregnancy, I think there's a stronger connection between these issues than you're pretending.

In years past when young girls got pregnant, getting married to the father was considered a good thing. In Texas, until 2005 that was allowed as young as 14 with parents' permission, and clearly from these data lots of young girls find themselves in that position. Then, by going after FLDS, Texas' law statutorily mandated MORE unwed mothers, since it was after 2005 illegal for them to marry the father and may even expose daddy to criminal prosecution.

So IMO the Lege allowed religious bigotry to shape the law in ways that had unintended, real-world consequences, including more children of young mothers growing up without a father in the house. I don't necessarily think that's a good outcome, however righteous (or self-righteous) were their motives.

Jam Inn said...

Grits your rather loose with the term "Father" if your alluding to accused pedophiles like Warren S. Jeffs. Merriane Jeffs was 12 years old when she was celestially wed to the then 49 year old indicted for statutory rape. For your information the FLDS church views menses as the proper age to marry and ignores legal statutes. Their public statement that they no longer perform underage marriages has been recanted by Willie R. Jessop who has subsequently stated that he can't speak for all FLDS Church members consciences and families decisions. Willie R. Jessop, when under oath, further recanted his comments as his own as a member of the FLDS Church but not in authority for same. You are soon to see at trial whom are the liars and whom is speaking the truth. I can't address the inner workings, legislative evils or ulterior motives of public officials. You can speculate to your hearts content on that conjecture. I choose to give witness to the Texas Exodus and diaspora by design and plan of the FLDS Church whom brings their hidden agenda into sovereign Texas unannounced nor compliant with existing Texas statutes. This sect is a Theocracy and gives rise to everyone's rights and protections under our Democracy are placed at risk. The FLDS Church hasn't invaded Texas with 550+ Adults and children to seek accommodations they have come at the behest of a Revelator and Seer whom proclaims that the 'End-Time' is at hand. Be alarmed and wary of those whom mask their agenda and present false witnesses to the truth. Criminal intents and heinous acts are brought by the State of Texas AG, draw near to the trials, lend your ear and be a witness to the Truth(s).

doran said...

JAM, what do you mean by "celestially marrying children"?

Jam Inn said...

The FLDS Church members are fully aware that they can not for bigamist/polygamist/polygynist marriages that are legally recognized. Their term for relgious weddings is 'celestial marriage' which they consider a tenet to their fundamentalist faith, i.e. non-secular or not legally enfoceable. This term harkens back to the very beginning of Mormondom and revelations made/taught by Joseph Smith.

Gritsforbreakfast said...

Jam Inn, your anonymous accusation that I countenanced Warren Jeffs' alleged child molestation shows you're an un-serious coward who's not worth debating.

Just to finish the loop, though: Polygamy has always been illegal here. Raising the marriage age had nothing to do with polygamy except in the twisted brains of people like you who'd support any attack on FLDS regardless of the harm it might do to young mothers. I think it's disgraceful but you're entitled to your opinion, however harmful, ill-informed and contrary to reality it might be.

Also, I'm extremely "wary of those whom [sic] mask their agenda and present false witnesses to the truth." It's just that in this case that's mostly been the Texas Rangers, CPS, and a hoax phone caller who were bearing false witness, usually based on the same overhyped prejudices you display here.

By contrast, what's happening in Houston and Dallas is a much more widespread problem that merits a lot more official excitement than the FLDS, no matter how worked up you're able to get yourself about polygamists in Eldorado.

Jam Inn said...

Mr.Grits assuming the legal age of 14 years was more correct denies the representatives of Texas their Constitutional duty to serve at the behest of the constituency and not be held ransom by your sole opinion. I believe that 16 years is the more proper minimum age and the U.S. Statehood's trend is toward increasing and not decreasing the age limit for marriage, as you champion the prior status quo. Parental approval has remained in place, no FLDS parents received under age Texas Court approvals and they were unlikely to have been granted to much more older aged husbands, in their 30s, 40s & 50s. Your claim that less under-aged marriages will be formed, simply because judicial review is prerequisite, is simply that your pretending that this would be the outcome, your back championing a status quo at 14 years with no data/facts. To profess that the tenets of polygamy is the singular cause to my alarm of the FLDS Church problem ignores the present trust dispute over the United Effort Plan Trust dispute in the Utah Superior Court with the FLDS Church who has refused to engage in the proceedings, The teachings of the Curse of Cain or Ham that violates Civil Rights or the teachings of Blood Atonement that justifies murder as a religious precept. Accusing the Legislators, CPS, Texas Ranges and an uncharged 'hoax' caller of acting from righteousness or self-righteousness focuses the blame on one-side while ignoring the threat posed from this organized Theocracy.
You're far too quick to judge elected Legislative officials and are guilty of ignoring the greater threat to the Texas Republic. You proclaim that polygamy is illegal but fail to acknowledge that a community of 550+ avowed polygamy FLDS Church members have invaded Schleicher County, Texas.

Your the guardian of Truth and Justice and don't see the elephant parading past your nose? I trust the Judge and Jury will see the elephant and restrain it.

Gritsforbreakfast said...

Jam Inn, you keep insinuating that I'm somehow commenting on the guilt or innocence of those indicted or the belief system of the FLDS, and that's your hobbyhorse, not mine. IMO the courts will decide the criminal cases soon enough and a lot more information will come out all the way around. (In particular, for example, I think we'll learn that the overwhelming majority of FLDS kids seized from their parents weren't living in a household where the state can prove criminality.)

But it's silly on its face to say changing the marriage age has nothing to do with all the 14 year old unwed mothers in Houston. You're letting your obsession get in the way of common sense. Forbidding them to marry means more will be unwed.

That said, you're not alone in letting obsessions obscure reality when it comes to the FLDS. Try this blog for a more sympathetic reception.

Jam Inn said...

Grits when you come across someone conversant of the facts you call them obsessed. Yeah, 27 mostly felony charges stemming from only one religious group, including 9 statutory rape charges does tend to get and hold my attention. Especially, when the perpetrators all originate from a foreign State of Utah and have imported their felony charges into Texas.

Let's be sure to hold the Texas Legislature, Texas Rangers and CPS employees to a full accounting of their actions and treatment of this covert religious sect from Utah, bent on practicing their Theocracy here in Schleicher County. You know they have purchased additional farm/ranch lands near New Braunfels and Rocksprings, in case they like the outcome of the pending indictments, then you can expect another 500-1,000 more FLDS Church members to accommodate in residency.

Anonymous said...

"You know they have purchased additional farm/ranch lands near New Braunfels and Rocksprings, in case they like the outcome of the pending indictments, then you can expect another 500-1,000 more FLDS Church members to accommodate in residency."

OMG, a "plague of plygs"!!
Seriously so what? How is any "decent" Texan's life going to be altered if "those people" move into our neck of the woods?? Should we grab our torches and pitchforks and run 'em outta town??

If this isn't religious bigotry, I don't know what is.

duane

Jam Inn said...

Religious bigotry???

More like bootleg Mafiosos dressed up in a shroud of relgiose.

Imagine that a God given right to commit statutory rape.

God given right to commit murder to save one's eternal soul, that's not bigoted?

All Black people are the Legions of the Devil? Who's bigoted now??

'One Man Rule' to the god given theocracy, what a bigoted religion???

"Keep Sweet" don't be shunned for thinking, YOY BIG IDIOT!

Anonymous said...

In Houston as soon as that first egg can be fertilized she may have a child. Someone started with her before that date, maybe when she was 10-11. That is part of the culture for a growing segment of our population and we do not oppose it, criticize it or do anything about it.

It's a war on the girls carried out by a large group of males who are nothing but trash.

Pirate Rothbard said...

Jam Inn,

You might take joy in the FLDS raid, but not all of us do. I wish the state of Texas had left them alone.

I generally trust the instincts of parents, and if they want to allow a fourteen year old girl to marry I don't have a problem with it. Maternal instincts are millions of years old, child protective services didn't become widespread until the 1958 amendments to the Social Security Act.

Boyness said...

I am sick of Texas....bye

Jam Inn said...

Pirate Rothbard are you completely off your head? These parents aren't just allowing a 14 year old to wed, the indictments are for marrying them to 30,40 & 50 year old practicing polygamists which is both statutory rape and bigamy, that's two felonies in one illicit marriage? Get a grip on this isn't some innocent premarital sex interlude but a religion that proclaims rights to pedophilies, rapists and polygynists and conducts a celestial marriage to avow the act as somehow Heavenly approved? Parents can still give their consent to an under age marriage but the law stipulates that they can't give permission to wed into a bigamist marriage or they can be charged with a third degree felony.

Please, don't be dumb and condone and endorse felonies just because you prioritize the CPS as being a greater EVIL since 1958, look at the FLDDS Church congregations and the tenets before you fault Law Enforcement or CPS workers.

This is not a "Father Knows Best" weekly television serial.

doran said...

JAM, it is totally legal in Texas, right now, for a man to live with, have sex with, and produce children with, as many women who can legally consent to sexual intercourse as will join him in the effort. His actions, and those of the women, become illegal ONLY if he purports to "marry" more than one of the women. That is what bigamy is about in Texas: "Protecting" the institution of marriage.

Bigamy as a criminal offense is not designed or intended to prohibit multiple sexual relationships between adults. Not even if the male who is sexually involved with 15 or 20 adult women is a religious fanatic or three times older than the women. Bigamy as a criminal offense is essentially a matter of religious bigotry.

If the FLDS people had not been so honest, and so true to their own religious beliefs--but had instead not "married" more than one women--many if not all of the criminal bigamy cases now pending would not/could not have been filed against them.

And in those cases where a minor child was "married" to an FLDS male, but where there was no sexual consumation of the marriage, the "sexual abuse of a minor" cases are shown for what they really are all about. Those cases where there was no sexual consumation of the "marriage" -- celestial marriages?-- are not about protecting children from sexual abuse or punishing those who are accused of it, but rather about "protecting" the institution of marriage.

Bigamy is a criminal offense in Texas ONLY because the Texas Legislature has willlingly gone along with the demands of religious bigots to make multiple marriage a criminal offense.

Raoul said...

"War on girls?" Along with the War on Reality (drugs) and Houston BARC's War on puppies and kitties, I'm loving it. I halfway expect some doofus legislator will introduce a bill criminalizing first ovulation. We will all be safe then!

Jam Inn said...

Doran you seem to hold that the "Dirty Dozen" are all charged primarily for bigamy charges, which you believe to be primarily a religious attempt to protect marriage. Really, what a blindly rationalization of why bigamy laws exist in Texas. You failed to mention the pedophile charges that has to do with an adult having sex with a child, namely of the age of 16 years old or younger. Does religion carry the blame for defining childhood and why that is a felony, as well? Your attempt at stating that some 'Celestial Marriages' are purely platonic ignores the religious precepts of the FLDS that teches that sex is solely for porcreation and three wives are necessary to enter the Celestial Heaven, so they don't profess platonic marriage in their precepts but do have babies born to teens aged 13 to 16 years old.
Additionally, you failed to mention
the minimum legal age limit of 16 years, changed in 2005 from 14 years, is this another concession to religion that a minimum exists in the statutes? If the FLDS members were truly so honest and true to practice polygamy why violate the minimum age limit and pedophilia laws? They believe that marrying age starts at menses, so even 14 years is not young enough of a limit for them, closer to 12 years old.

So the charges filed by the San Angelo Grand Jury are against pedophilia, marriage age limits and bigamy, yet you chose to only redress bigamy in your comments. The 'Celestial Marriages' reflect Triple Felony Counts for statutory rape, marriage W/O parental consent and bigamy.

I thought our laws serve to protect us, especially those more vulnerable like children and women, then these statutes do just that?

Jam Inn said...

Bigamy laws exist because Ameicans decided back when we were still a colony that English Common Law recognized just monogamy as a lawful and sanctioned(licensed) form of sexual contract. We have the right as a 'free people' to order our society by majority rule in any fashion that reflects the 'Will of the People' and not just the wants of Fundamentalist Mormons. I would like, as an example, to state that we, also, believe in 'one man, one vote' as an agreed to principle/practice and not 'one man, three votes' as the settled form of vote counts.

The real wants and desires of the FLDS Church in Texas is to be left alone and allowed to practice Theocracy within our National Democracy, of course they are not that honest to admit to their truer tenets of 'One Man Rule' and follow the Prophet to the exclusion of all other authorities but you can investigate that fact for yourselves.

doran said...

JAM, you need to take a remedial reading comprehension class. Or maybe just slow down and read things twice, at least.
If you will do that as to my last post, you will see that I did mention the child sexual abuse cases.

There are no criminal charges, of which I'm aware, "against pedophilia," as you put it, involving FLDS people in Texas. There are charges pending which allege that there was child sexual abuse. The State of Texas may or may not be able to prove those charges beyond a reasonable doubt. I don't know what the proof will show and I doubt that you do, either. Those defendants certainly should not be convicted solely upon the basis of the FLDS religious ideology, as you seem to think. There must be evidence beyond a reasonable doubt of actual sexual intercourse.

This brings up an interesting point: Can the FLDS people get a fair trial "here in Schleicher County?" Or is the jury pool there so polluted by religious bigotry that a fair trial is impossible? If you, for example, are on the jury panel from which a trial jury is chosen, are you going to be honest and tell the Judge that you have already made up your mind that the Defendant or Defendants are guilty?

[I hope that the defense attorneys will go to the trouble of issuing subpoenas to blogs, such as Grits For Breakfast, to find out the identities of people like yourself who may have bias so great as to justify your exclusion from the trial jury. Those attorneys should also subpoena the email traffic of prosecutors, court personel, law enforcement, and others to determine the extent of attempts at jury pool pollution by the State.]

I try to avoid pointing out the obvious to people with whom I'm having a conversation, because it is sorta insulting. However, I think I need to do so in this conversation.

Isn't it obvious that if there were no criminal offense of multiple marriages (bigamy), then those marriages under the age of 16 with parental consent would not per se be criminal child sexual abuse cases?

What a field day for religious bigots "here in Schleicher County!" You get a triple play based on your religious bigotry!

I notice that you have not addressed the peculiar dis-connect in our laws regarding multiple sexual relationships outside of marriage. Tell me why in your opinion should it be illegal to marry more than one person at the same time, but not illegal to live with, have sex with, and produce children with more than one person outside a marriage relationship?

Isn't it perfectly clear that bigamy as a criminal offense is a codification of religious beliefs and the criminalization of behavior that is legal when carried on when there is no marriage?

You seem to disagree with my "take" on the reasons underlying the offense of bigamy. So why do you think it should be a felony offense?

And here is a teaser for you: Can a gay guy enter into two or more purported marriages at the same time without committing the offense of bigamy, in your opinion?

Anonymous said...

Good God! It's one of Flora's Fruit Loops crusading on Grits!

Forget it guys. There's NO WAY of ever convincing any of the loopy crusaders that:

A. A pedophile is not a man who has a relationship/relations with any female under the age of 18 instead of one who lusts after prepubescents.

B. Any young woman under the age of 18 is competent to make decisions for herself and her own life/body. Those brain cells do not function until the magic age of 18 when the Majority Fairy waves her magic wand and suddenly POOF! we have a legal adult.

C.Anything the FLDS does is wrong.

D. Everything the FLDS does is wrong.

E. They are ALL guilty of everything and anything they have ever been accused of despite any and all evidence to the contrary or possible wrongdoing by LE by virtue of being FLDS.

You will never convince "them" that teenagers, are not completely devoid of hormones and the will to use them until they reach the age of 18 and then all those hormones hit at once which is OK because they are now suddenly legal. But they still can't have anything going with anyone more than a few years older than them because the Fruit Loops find the mental picture completely repugnant and compelled to label these men pedophiles because while legal, the young women are still technically teens or completely brain washed and we all know that teenage girls REALLY don't have those necessary brain functions until they are 35 and that's why they are trying to move the age of consent to 35.

You will never convince them that Celestial marriage doesn't mean that there is massive amounts of sex happening....somewhere...they may not be able to prove it, but they know it's going on. Look! There goes a teenager with a baby! Sex! We have proof that SEX happened! Quick! Someone get that girl a prairie dress and braid her hair so we can call over the media.

You will never convince them that anyone who defends the FLDS or speaks against those who attack them is not a closet pedophile or enabler and that they are the only ones who have American Values (at least American Values in a very Puritan/Salem Witch Trials, guilty before innocent, kill them all and let God sort them out, we'll reprogram and adopt out all the children under 7 with all that fine CPS care, kind of way.

You will never defeat their faith that CPS is a fine government organization and can do no wrong. Everything CPS does is right.
Anything CPS does is right.
Anything Texas does is right.
Everything Texas does is right.

If you disagree with their opinion you are either FLDS, a pedophile and most likely both so whatever your opinion, it doesn't count because you are obviously wrong and they will bring up the same litany of “sins of the FLDS” and repeat them over and over again until you either get that you are wrong and they are right or your head explodes in frustration. Either strategy works for them.

And last but not least, God help you if you happen to be a man and disagree with any part of their argument. Because if you are a man and don't completely capitulate to their point of view, you are a pedophile. If you are lucky enough to not be a pedophile, you are a sympathizer or enabler of pedophiles. If you happen to point out that you are a woman and disagree with their point of view for any reason, you must really be a man masquerading as a woman and you probably do so on strange websites to entrap unsuspecting teens into acts of desperate passion and vice with your keyboard.

I would be laughing if the Fruit Loops didn't make me think of the Spanish Inquisition.

“No one expects the Spanish Inquisition.”

Anonymous said...

"Parental approval has remained in place, no FLDS parents received under age Texas Court approvals and they were unlikely to have been granted to much more older aged husbands, in their 30s, 40s & 50s."

An interesting statement Jam. I would very much like to see the statistic to back it up instead of just you word for it. I very much doubt you will be able to provide those statistics and that your words that approval from a judge would be unlikely for older husbands in their "30's, 40's &
50's has more to do with your wishful thinking than it is based in fact.

Anonymous said...

Imagine no religion.

Jam Inn said...

Doran you seem to need a religious demagogue to harangue your half-truths and mistaken understanding of statutes upon. Don't blame me for the fact that statutory rape, marital age limits or bigamy laws exist and your desire to deconstruct moral turpitude statutes which seems to be your fondest desire. I expect the cases at trial will prove the legal facts as required by law and your objections will be disproven and the laws will remain intact.
How can our government in good conduct deny foreigners Visas, students status of worker permits based upon moral turpitude laws enforced by our customs agents, yet allow those very same practices to go uncharged by citizens here? Do you propose allowing Arab sheiks visas to bring their harems here to America to visit Disneyland? Are foreign muslims practicing bigamy to be granted legal work permits and allowed bring all his wives along. i thought foreigners found guilty of bigamy here are deported and denied entry?

The felony of pedophilia defines as sexual perversion in which children are the sole sexual object. The felony of statutory rape, your right the current actual charges, is sexual contact between an adult and a child. It is a first degree form and viewed as on of the most serious form of this felony. Is there such a big difference here in the obvious legal attempt to protect the child from adult exploitation? You work out the bogus discrepancy in felony(s).
You are back proclaiming religious bigotry and now aim it at the citizenry of Schleicher County trying to taint the jury pool, very funny are you afraid of a panel of your peers? Jurys are a long standing American practice and it's fairness and decisions have stood the test of time, now all of a sudden you see some fatal flaw?

Gee, Doran what an obvious observation you make that if bigamy wasn't against the law then no laws would have been broken, brilliant! Say, if all laws were done away with our jail overcrowding problems would all be solved!

You question me to address people having sex and living together as not being illegal and why that isn't illegal? The form of marriage that is legal is monogamy and not polygamy. I don't condone these illicit lifestyles but they aren't illegal. Why? The 'Will of the People' and our freedom to order our society by majority rule. You don't seem to grasp the workings of a Democracy as opposed to a Theocracy? marriage requires a formal license and comes with not only legal status but protections of extensive Family Laws, living outside the system has it's own set of negative consequences for fornicators and bigamists. Bigamy has to be an illegal offense to shore up monogamy as the preferred form of marital licensing, there needs to be penalties for those willful lawbreakers that break down our Law & Order. Don't we fine folks for driving above the legal speed limit? In States that have recognized same-sex-marriages, I think that the same monogamy marriage statutes apply, otherwise there would be lawsuits.

There are many more abuses associated with the practice of bigamy but the specific topic limits my further comments on frauds, imprisonments and blackmail.

Jam Inn said...

Heah Anonymous....Gooness sakes it's one of Warren's Worried Warriors, again! Minor age limit of 35 Years old.....Celestial Marriages for purely platonic pledges.....18 year is the age that a sex drive develops.....Rape, Age limits to marry & Bigamy laws = Spanish Inquisition?

See there not a serious debate at all just a trivializing of the topic trying to change the lessen it's degree of seriousness.

Jam Inn said...

Anonymous you doubt that a judge would readily approve a 30,40 or 50 year old to marry a teen ager? Judges have to run for elections and hold public office. You don't see the political problem with say half the voting public? Say the women voters? There will never be much statistics on this because it simply won't transpire. Get a clue.

TX mom said...

OMG 13,14,15 and 16 year old girls getting pregnant? It must have been rape because it is illegal for anyone under the age of 17 to consent to sex (haha) CPS has a huge job ahead of them. They should hire more people.
It is obvious tha Jam is not from TX.

Jam Inn said...

TxMom, You think they should be allowed to vote, smoke a cigarette, go to a topless bar, serve in the military, fill a prescription, sign contracts, drive a car, buy a porno magazine, get a tattoo, drink an alcoholic beverage, watch X-rated movies at the ages of 13,14,15 or 16 years of age?

Or are you just approving that it's O.K. to have sex at those formative years? Everything else would be way too mentally abusive?

Or maybe you can pick and choose which ones are O.K.?

TX mom said...

Jam, I am not approving anything, I am just stating a fact. If you can't deal with the facts then you have a problem. If you are just uniformed then I can sort of understand. I work in a hospital and see underage girls all of the time delivering babies. Schools hand out condoms all of the time, but fail to educate the teens and young people as to the legal consequences of their actions.
They will check an id to buy tobacco, but anyone, any age can buy a condom. THE STATE CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. So should everyone go to jail for underage sex? I see many young ladies 18 to 20 who have had multiple births. WHO DO YOU THINK PAYS FOR THESE KIDS? IF the boyfriends are older than the girls chances are they are locked up and prohibited from taking responsibility for their children. You need to wake up and educate yourself as to what is happening in the world.

Jam Inn said...

TXMom I am fully aware of the epidemic of children having children epidemic in this society, you just need to be less cryptic in you two sentence comments. You aren't aware of the ages of the victims/perpetrators of the 9 statutory rape charges at the YFZ Ranch from men who proclaim a religious right to impregnate these girls as a tenet to their religion. How can you equate the actions of Adult men, under the guise of their religion and claiming that their wed, to your observations as the same thing. I guess you want them kept out of jail so they can Statutorily rape a few dozen more. many of these FLDS Church leaders have two dozen or more wives. If the men now charged are allowed to stay free, dozens of more Child Brides will follow, they have a 175 year history of rapes. Why criticize the Law Enforcement, CPS and me that are taking actions, you seem to be addressing the solution, I am for addressing the problem. One takes legal and political will power and the other takes medical and financial resolutions. You notice that I haven't proclaimed CPS to be the resolution either, they work on your end.

When the Judge and jury have spoken it will be too late to retract your unfounded comments against CPS, LE or me.

Anonymous said...

Jam Inn,

For some reason, people like you, people who have completely abandoned the innocent until proven guilty part of our system, have decided your way is the only “right” way to think and live, and will recognize no argument but your own as valid just seem to bring out that bit of “taunt the Puritan” in me.

If you didn’t make it so easy to make fun of you and your arguments, it might be more fun to do so. Please try a bit harder.

But the truth is, you and those like you on one level scare the living daylights out of me because you are so tied up in the rhetoric and emotions of your arguments that you fail to listen and see past them when they are proven false. You haven’t the sight to see that if we turn our backs to “irregularities” in how our justice system and CPS have functioned in this case when they didn’t follow or bend their own rules, not only do we rob citizens of their rights, but there is nothing to stop them from continuing down the same path with others. You speak without thinking through the consequences of the enforcing the laws you call for and with no sense that while you might get that tingly, feel good thing going that you’ve done something “right & moral” you have deprived others of what may once have been Constitutionally protected rights.

You are in effect deaf, dumb and blind to any point of view other than your own. You won’t hear it, you won’t see it and you certainly won’t discuss it with an open mind.

P.S. You are clearly incapable of ever believing that a teenager might have lustful thoughts for a man in his 30’s (Matthew McConaughey), 40’s (James Spader), 50’s (Mikhail Baryshnikov), or 60’s ( Harrison Ford) without coming down with the vapors while the rest of the world has already figured out that not only is it possible, but probable and given the chance, she’ll act on them. With intent, full and complete knowledge of what she’s doing, no brainwashing or being taken advantage of necessary.

Jam Inn said...

Oh, I guess in a fantasyland way I can see that an under age girl could be guilty of dreaming about an older man, sure that's entirely possible. It's far more likely that the boys she passes in the corridor at school really makes her heart race, even more believably. You wish to discuss the ins/outs of the CPS actions and I would like to discuss the ins/outs of the FLDS Church actions in transplanting 550+ Adults and children over 1,000 miles from Utah into Texas. people like you scare me too when the covert actions and hidden agenda of a known polygamist sect just pops up in Eldorado and lies from day one about their presence, plans and agenda. Almost no one knows why,when or how this diaspora took place?

You want to scrutinize the Texas Rangers, CPS and Texas AG Office over the conduct ot the execution and conduct of the search warrant, stictly along secular Constitutional basis. I want to look more closely at the Prophet wanted by the FBI and chose Federal flight to avoid capture, his YFZ Ranch congregation that offered/provided safe-haven and additional church leaders that aided and abetted him from capture. I want to know where all the funds come from to buy, build and flee a fugitive from capture.

You see your focused on the Democracy and I am informed of a Theocracy that co-exists in this sect and holds paramount allegiance to it's Church and not the State. You do consider the U.S. Constitution to be the 'Supreme Law of the Land', right?
We'll FlDS members look upon their Prophet as the living supreme authority, so that should concern you. In fact the point is that you wish to even discuss the Constitutional aspect assures me of who is deaf, dumb and blind. You have heard of 'Houses of Hiding'? Do you know some of them exist outside of the U.S. in Mexico and Canada where American citizens are being held against their wills, do you care nothing for those citizens rights? Do you know that American minor girls have been sent to Canada and Canadian minor girls have been sent to America? Do you understand that the FLDS Church has enclaves in Canada/Mexico and based upon a change in their Prophets thinking they could all be told to move there tomorrow, not unlike what Reverend Jim Jones did when the Peoples Temple went to Jonestown, Guyana? You remember the 909 member congregation that committed mass suicide?

Anonymous said...

“Oh, I guess in a fantasyland way I can see that an under age girl could be guilty of dreaming about an older man, sure that's entirely possible. It's far more likely that the boys she passes in the corridor at school really makes her heart race, even more believably.”

You really must either be delusional or you had the most boring, sheltered teen years imaginable.

As for the rest, well it may escape you, but the FLDS regardless of whom or how the worship are American citizens. They can worship a giant, gold statue of Mickey Mouse, disciple of the great god Disney, and sacrifice effigies of Donald Duck on the full moon every month for all I care, they still have rights under the law.

“the covert actions and hidden agenda of a known polygamist sect just pops up in Eldorado and lies from day one about their presence, plans and agenda.”

That’s some serious paranoia you got going there.

And you know that people are being held against their will in houses of hiding how? And if indeed they are being held against their will and you know this for a fact as well as the locations of these houses, why haven’t you alerted the authorities? Or would this just be another thing you’ve read in a book and taken as gospel?

And of course we couldn’t finish the day without the cherry on the top of the sundae: The Jimmy Jones and Guyana reference. Of course we all remember old Jimmy and his Kool Aid recipe, but what never ceases to amaze me is how you all keep making the comparison. I don’t seem to remember them finding large quantities of Kool Aid ( too many dyes and preservatives) or cyanide, or strychnine or any other deadly poison when they searched the ranch. Didn’t find those infant graveyards, hidden dead bodies, or a whole lot of other things they went looking for in the first place…..like…..Sarah.

Jam Inn said...

Well now you seem to be backing up on unpublished knowledge? Ole Jimmy Jones, his full name was James Warren Jones, left California and moved to Guyana, boring everybody knows that, Right? They didn't originate in California the moved from Indianapolis, Indiana to California because Jim had a revelation. Why did Warren Jeffs move to West Texas and build a Temple? Was he trying to exercise his 'Free Speech? Did Warren have a revelation?

Jam Inn said...

They found 'Sarah' they have brought charges on nine husbands for statutory rape and the tenth charge is pending because Teresa Steed and her baby are missing and their location is unknown, are they in a "House of Hiding"?

The People's Temple in Jonestown didn't call it "Kool Aid" it was referred to a 'Translation' and it was worked into their worship services prior to Reverend Jones calling them calmly, "Cross-over People, everything will be at peace, Cross-over".

Pirate Rothbard said...

Jam Inn,

I never said the LDS is within the law, I just endorsed nonintervention by the state.

The marriage of teenage girls to much older men may shock you but it has a long history in this world. I think most parents know what's right for their children and can be trusted to do the right thing. I believe the law should be changed to allow this practice.

Ditto for polygamy, which is even more widespread in the history of civilization. Polygamy will never go away, it's a normal part of being an extremely successful male. (As in male human, lion, gorrilla etc). Ask Hillary Clinton or any wife of an NBA player and they can tell you what's up.

I never said members of the FLDS were superior to CPS and law enforcement, I said that I put my trust in parental instincts above government. I don't know what kind of parents you had, but I can tell you that mine were far more loving than any social worker or foster care provider could ever be. I hope you can say the same.

Needless to say, you don't seem like someone who hates their parents, but you have some big gripe with FLDS. Perhaps your a feminist, a fundementalist Christian... it doesn't matter. You believe in government intervention and you're part of the problem.

Anonymous said...

Priscilla was 14 and Elvis was 24 when they began a romantic relationship.
Charlie Chaplin married Oona O'Neil when she was 17, he was 56.

I'm sure with a little time I could come up with a most impressive list, but those two kind of stuck in my mind. Like the 16 year old who married her 40 year old ex teacher in South Carolina, with her parents consent.

“Why did Warren Jeffs move to West Texas and build a Temple? Was he trying to exercise his 'Free Speech? Did Warren have a revelation?”
In order, who knows, who cares and personally I think choosing Texas was a fit of insanity not a revelation, but he was well within his right to do so as were those who chose to follow him.

They never “found Sarah” because “Sarah” was Rosita. Burns you that Theresa and her baby stood up to Texas and left doesn't it?

I believe a very important point that you continually fail to recognize is that people are free to believe whatever system they choose. If I choose believe that sacrificing the occasional chicken or goat to Papa Legba is a viable religion, that dancing naked covered in chicken blood to the sound of African drums and live my life in service to the Loa are a good thing, I am well within my rights to do so. If I choose to break away from that and teach my children the words of the Necronomicon and that once every 500 years they can raise the great god Cthulhu in an empty field outside Los Angeles by sacrificing virgin gerbils (even if sacrificing human virgins wasn't illegal, where are you going to find one in LA these days) it is my right to do so and risk the anger of PETA as well as the difficulty of finding a virgin gerbil. I also have the right to become a Catholic, a Jew or any other religion that calls to me including becoming the fifth wife of a polygamist as long as I don't try to do it in the county court house.

Every one of those who chose to follow Jones out of the country did so because they believed. They died, their children died because they believed. The price we pay for the freedom to choose our own faith over a State approved, run or mandated religion is that as human beings we are capable of believing in things like

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mark 16:17-18"

to the point of introducing poisonous vipers into a church, of virgin births, gods that take on the characteristics of animals, religious leaders who can do no wrong in the eyes of their followers, vampires, werewolves, aliens and in men like Jones. Like it or not, outlaw it or not, there will always be those who “believe” in something and will follow the dictates of their beliefs.

There are over 30,000 Christian faith structures alone, start breaking down the other 22 major identifiable religions into offshoots and the number climbs dramatically. Which ones should we approve of? Which practices should be universally acceptable? Who decides which ones should be legal and which ones should be outlawed based on the beliefs and practices? Who decides which god is God? The alternative is to return to the kind of religious and political climate that allowed the Spanish Inquisition to happen.

Jam Inn said...

See Pirate Rothbard the changes to the laws that you propose won't come to pass simply because your in the minority on most/all of the changes you desire:

1.) Parents given the sole right to marry their children underage ignores the child's best interest.

2.) Marry age limits abolished invites child exploitation by Adults with impunity.

3.) International agreements and courts have ruled that polygamy is inherently abusive to women and children and must be abolished. Muslim's have the greater experience with the tolerance of polygamy and it exists in Africa amongst the poverty section and in the Arab world amongst the wealthiest but isn't practiced elsewhere amongst Islam societies. Polygamy has never been legalized in America and won't change anytime soon.

4.)You say I have a problem but I just look for the existing statutes to be enforced when a criminal act is known.

5.) The FLDS Church indictees will face the current statutes and after convictions/exonerations these same statutes will remain felonies.

You have a lot of work ahead of you to change so many felony statutes and if you can change them to your satisfaction then I'll become the criminal that then ignores them until they are changed back to my way of thinking. I don't abide a Theocracy asserting it's controls and rules over a duly elected Democracy that has existed for well over 225 Years. Women and children are believed to be the property of the Priesthood (husband) and the Priesthood are believed to be the property of the Prophet. The Prophet believes in 'One Man Rule' and doesn't consider the U.S. Constitution is binding upon him as he is God's sole authority in deciding FLDS Church matters. Await the trials and you will see this 'Answer Them Nothing' policy, just like we now see in the UEPTrust hearings, will play out as they assert their theocratic system over our democratic government.

Jam Inn said...

Maybe you could care less Anonymous why the FLDS Church moved into Schleicher County unannounced but the vast majority of citizens in that county are up in arms over the invasion, lies and criminality. You want a liberal and tolerant treatment for Warren Jeffs but you see he was wanted by the FBI during his move in to Eldorado and he even used the YFZ Ranch as his hideout while he was sought as a fugitive. He proceeded, during his time spent hidden on the ranch, to marry several of the Grand Jury indictments now charged and he married a 12 year old wife, likely his 100+ wedded bride and is indicted with statutory rape and bigamy with her. Rozita has not been charged for any cellular calls to the YFZ Ranch and if she is charged it would be a misdemeanor and not a felony. Teresa Steed's whereabouts concerns me and I trust she and her baby are safe and she will be subpoenaed in accordance with a Court order, you know in accordance with Law & Order. You proclaim your mistaken view of 'Freedom of Religion' that doesn't exist as defined by the Supreme Court and case law rulings. 'Freedom of Religion' has limits, such as Reynolds Vs. United States wherein it is ruled that a believer can not break an existing statute and plead he did so for a religious precept/tenet. You are a dumbbell for saying otherwise. Holm Vs. Utah was filed with the Supreme court to challenge Reynolds case law and the Supreme Court declined to hear the case.

You have no problem with the Jonestown suicides and I must say you are one of the only persons I have ever met that had no problem with the loss of so many lives needlessly and you even quote Scripture from Mark, whoa you are one warped puppy. Congressman Leo Ryan and other persons were gunned down and assassinated at the Jonestown Airfield and is the only Congressman ever killed while performing his elected duties in American History, I am curious if his death means anything to you, either?

My beliefs are that the U.S, Constitution is the 'Supreme Law of the Land' and I look to the Supreme Court and case law such as Reynolds Vs. United States to define what is meant by 'Freedom of Religion'. Any religion that conforms to these points has ample freedom and Constitutional rights protected by our Judicial system.
There is zero chance of an Spanish Inquisition and your attempt at inflammatory rhetoric is very funny, lighten up.

Pirate Rothbard said...

You're right Jam Inn, it is a long road ahead to legalize polygamy or anything else.

But it's been a great joy watching the case against the FLDS gradually fall apart and seeing most of the children returned to their parents.

Jam Inn said...

I believe the "Dirty Dozen" will be brought to Justice and the Public & Press outcry against the YFZ Raunch will finally focus attention upon the poor judgments made during the CPS Raid and the The Appelate Courts Minority opinion that obviously crimes had been committed will be brought forward about this Felony Farm.

Not a proper locale in which to raise and keep children safe from harms.

Tony Alamo Ministry and the FLDS Church will soon light up the underworld with their infamies and blasphemies. You have forgotten on who's side stands Law & Order.

Gritsforbreakfast said...

Jam Inn,, it's a lie that they "found Sarah." The phone call was a hoax. And if you REALLY believed in the Constitution you'd be as opposed to the original YFZ Ranch search warrants and illegal child seizures as most folks here were. But you're obviously willing to defenestrate the Constitution whenever it would help attack FLDS.

Having written 21 of 48 (mostly off-topic) comments here, clearly you're obsessed, but I'm getting bored with your disjointed, half-baked ramblings. Your comments anonymously present shreds of truth packaged in anger, misrepresentation and hyperbole in a way that's just not very credible.

Jam Inn said...

Calling for the City of Houston to be raided and brought under a search warrant isn't hyperbole and completely credible. I guess tossing red meat out to your adoring audience is well founded and an accurate perspective. Go back and read the questions posed by your posters here and my responses, half of the posts were to address their questions, obviously they were curious/interested enough to inquire and you object to the dialogue?

The 'hoax' call should be proven before you claim it to be a fact, even if every poster believed it!
I take it you place restrictions on 'Free Speech' to chide a poster like myself and then question my endorsement of the U.S. Constitution? Guess you better put your righteous finger on the 'delete' button. Your the one dressed in the 'Emperor's Robe' once convictions come down the pike and not me.

doran said...

JAM, you are a terribly disturbed person. Having a conversation with you is, to paraphrase Barney Frank, like having a conversation with a broken down, splintery, termite infested, rickety old dining room table.

Just in closing, to highlight your penchant for hysterical lying, look at your own figures: Nine husbands indicted out of 550+ adults at YFZ Ranch. Sorta puts the lie to your assertion that all FLDS are rapists and child molestors. And it puts the lie to your attempts to appear to be a hero to the children of YFZ. After all the abuse those children took at the insistence of the good people of Schleicher County and their Reps, and at the hands, feet, guns and attitudes of the Texas Rangers, the Schleicher County Sheriff, the Baptists, CPS, the Attorney General of Texas, and people like yourself, you have nothing else to say but to blame the FLDS.

Sad, JAM, really sad.

Anonymous said...

Jamm,

Our Democracy, the one that's been around for 225 year didn't raise the age of consent until the early 1900's. Before then it was 10-12 years old, then in some stated it jumped to 15-16. Perhaps you should do a bit of reading as to the history of the age of consent laws and what social and political moves were behind it. The leading factor for the raise in the age of consent laws was the emergence of women in the factories and the freedom they gained from entering the workforce. Age of consent laws were raised in a direct effort to control the sexuality of female factory workers. The same young women who usually started working in those factories at the age of 8. It had much less to do with protecting the innocence of these women than it did with ensuring a work force and controlling sexuality. If you take the time to read this history, one of the things you will notice is the emergence of these laws was much more prominent in states in which factories were the main source of employment.

Furthermore, the age of consent across Europe reads as follows:
Spain: Twelve.
-Portugal, Iceland, Germany, Italy, Slovenia, Austria, Hungary, Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro, Albania, Estonia, and Lithuania: Thirteen.
-France, Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia, Sweden, Denmark, Romania, Bulgaria, and Greece: Fifteen.
-The United Kingdom, Northern Ireland, The Netherlands, Belgium, Switzerland, Bosnia, Kosovo, Latvia, Kaliningrad, Belaris, Ukraine, Moldova, Norway, and Finland: Sixteen.
-Southern Ireland: Seventeen.
Given that Europe isn't faced with the numbers of cases of men being imprisoned for “sex crimes” involving older men and younger women we have here, perhaps they know something we won't recognize about teen sexuality and human relationships? Perhaps because they view their teens and sexuality in a much different manner than Americans do?

Advocates for Youth does and annual study into teen birth rates and compare the US to Countries like France, Germany and the Netherlands where the teen birth rate is much lower than ours. They came back with point like these:

Anonymous said...

cont.

Adults in the Netherlands, France, and Germany view young people as assets, not as problems. Adults value and respect adolescents and expect teens to act responsibly. Governments strongly support education and economic self-sufficiency for youth.

Research is the basis for public policies to reduce unintended pregnancy, abortion, and sexually transmitted infections, including HIV. Political and religious interest groups have little influence on public health policy.

A national desire to reduce the number of abortions and to prevent sexually transmitted infections, including HIV, provides the major impetus in each country for unimpeded access to contraception, including condoms, consistent sexuality education, and widespread public education campaigns.

Governments support massive, consistent, long-term public education campaigns utilizing the Internet, television, films, radio, billboards, discos, pharmacies, and health care providers. Media is a partner, not a problem, in these campaigns. Campaigns are far more direct and humorous than in the U.S. and focus on safety and pleasure.
Sexuality education is not necessarily a separate curriculum and may be integrated across school subjects and at all grade levels. Educators provide accurate and complete information in response to students' questions.

Families have open, honest, consistent discussions with teens about sexuality and support the role of educators and health care providers in making sexual health information and services available for teens.

Adults see intimate sexual relationships as normal and natural for older adolescents, a positive component of emotionally healthy maturation. At the same time, young people believe it is "stupid and irresponsible” to have sex without protection and use the maxim, "safer sex or no sex"

The morality of sexual behavior is weighed through an individual ethic that includes the values of responsibility, respect, tolerance, and equity.

Yes Grits, we have strayed from the topic and I do apologize for baiting the Puritan, I will control the urge even though Jamm makes it so easy. Our own issues with teen sexuality and pregnancy are very deep rooted and are not easily fixed. As are the issues of how the FLDS are treated while we ignore the greater issue of not only how the law is unequally applied, but how a specific group was targeted for religious reasons. As was pointed out by one commenter in the article, if judges can dismiss cases in the Hispanic community as “cultural” how can they justify not doing the same for the FLDS? There is no justification for applying the full force of the law on one group to the point they did while ignoring both the incidents of teen pregnancy and the religious or cultural beliefs of another.

Jam Inn said...

Well Doran that's all you got to say? Good luck on repealing the U.S. Customs moral turpitude policy(s) and if the Sheik gets to come visit I hope you show him and his wives a really great time. Your view doesn't change our laws, polygamy is illegal and living together and having children is not a crime. Unfair, unequal or morally reprehensible but reflective of the 'Will of the People' and Majority Rule.

I dare not say more because Grits says I'm obsessed and I am being a bore. No comment by you on enforcement of Moral Turpitude laws against foreign born visitors and persons looking to naturalize as American citizens?

I feel sorry for your lack of self-expression, I am filled with sorrow.

Jam Inn said...

Anonymous, I fear to tread on your comments and topics, maybe you consider a lecture so I should just take note. I don't want to upset Grits beyond his present unease with me. Your review of the Industrial Revolution and it's impact upon the Victorian Era, failed to mention the passage of the 19th Amendment - Women's Suffrage don't you think doubling the electorate needs mentioning? Even the Victorian Era redressed the practice of Slavery and passed Child Labor laws and advanced public education as an institution. The FLDS church heralds a return to women and children being considered property by their religious precepts, have members sited as Child Labor law violators and church private education ended at the 8th. Grade level, even Queen Victoria would be concerned. the Civil rights movement and and spread of same into the workplace and home seems to be your truer concern and apprehension, good luck with ending that trend with 50% of the voting electorate being women.

You make Europe seem so progressive and inviting, I just choose to vacation there, but you sound like you want to live there. I am an American and by my Liberty, Fraternity and Freedoms have grown accustomed to my Nations values and look upon Europeans as distant cousins who have involved us in no less than two World Wars. Funny, but my european cousins tell me that they find my American teens as fat to self-assured, outspoken and independent to their parents and police? They complain bitterly at the African, Islamic, Indian and Easter European invasion that you fail to even mention.

This isn't just religious and cultural differences, it is a full blown Theocracy and it threatens our Democratic Freedoms but I stray from Grits insightful hyperbole of considering the City of Houston as the next target of a Police Raid. I guess we can use the current Houston phonebook as the search warrant address, wouldn't want violate any 'due process' clause, didn't that clause come down to us by case laws?

Anyway now my Grits has gotten cold.

doran said...

JAM, you are filled with something, but it certainly isn't sorrow. Bile, more than likely.

Concerning that Sheik about whom you continue to obsess: Is that the same Sheik who visited W in Crawford, and with whom W held hands?

Maybe that Sheik was looking for large plots of land to purchase. What are you going to do when the Sheik's wives, multitudes of children, extended family, kinfolks and friends in FLDS show up there in the Eldorado area, in numbers large enough to turn any local election and pass local ordinances? Will you still be so certain of your belief in The Majority Rules?

Really, have you given that possibility much thought? In less than 10 years, Anglos will probably be a minority in Texas. The middle eastern population in Texas will have grown considerably. New immigrants will be moving into West Texas. You have already suggested that more FLDS settlers may be moving in.

Yahoos like yourself need to start being nice to these people, rather than hostile. Make friends with them, invite them in, talk gently to them about how you hope there can be a melding of cultures. Cut out this crap about meeting them at the County Line with cops, armed choppers and tanks, and stop the crap about passing laws that are aimed at driving them out. It won't work in the long term. This ain't the Wild West no more. You can't get away with treating people now like your great grandparents treated Native Americans. You'll just piss'em off and they'll retaliate with law suits and take-over elections and laws aimed at chasing you out of the County. Get Smart, JAM. Stop being a fool.

Jam Inn said...

Ooopps...,'fat to self-assured' (typo) should read, "far too self-assured".

Jam Inn said...

Geee....Doran your get Smart strikes me as pretty Dumb. One of the biggest problems faced with allowing foreign polygamists into our borders is all of the bogus residency claims that would follow. All a foreign woman would need to do to gain entry to America is marry a polygamist American sheik and divorce him once her status is approved? Bet you didn't think of that but the government of Canada sure is concerned because they are now testing their bigamy laws, trying to conform with their signed International Agreement(s) that call for polygamy to be outlawed, within their borders.

Since when has demanding existing statutes been enforced as written now being considered treating a criminal with hostility? I am in the majority on these issues and the Theocrats are not going to be allowed to dictate to the elected Democtratic view. They have the right to boycott, file grievances, author propositions, demand Constitutional amendments or propose new legislation. I am not interested in appeasement or modifications beyond existing legal status quo but they are welcomed to act lawfully, however, they may choose.

Don't suggest to me that polygamists rule over me, they are the outlaws in this topic, not me.

doran said...

JAM, so far in this discussion you have explicitly emphasized that you are just in favor of enforcing our laws. But implicit in your rancor and language is a determined hostility toward polygamy which far out-weighs any plain old "lawn order" position you might have. I mean, do you feel as strongly about certain felony offenses involving oysters as you do about polygamy? Does a felony offense involving the theft of a goat similarly excite your outrage? Does a sheriff who uses jail trustees to mow his yard and walk his dog get you as pissed off as you get at polygamists?

By the way, your thinking about polygamy is a bit flawed: It is not polygamy which is illegal in this State, it is bigamy. And those anti-bigamy laws are the result of applying theocratic beliefs and dogmas of one religion to people of other religions.

I suggest you keep in mind that FLDS is not interested in making you one of their plural wives. They seem to have had no history at all of requiring all people to adhere to their practice of having plural wives. Your hysteria and fear, as well as your fear mongering, on this subject are significantly misplaced. If you want to be fearful of theocratic influences over your private life, be fearful of Baptists and other, random, fundamentalist so-called "Christian" sects.

Hey, I'll bet there are more entries in the KJ Bible in support of having many wives than there are against the practice.

Jam Inn said...

Bible scholars have come back mostly on the Bible either endorsing or rejecting polygamy as an accepted practice as being neutral, the Christian tradition and practice of polygamy has been overwhelmingly against, including the LDS Church which has renounced the practice of polygamy since 1890 and excommunicates avowed bigamists if known. Yes, I believe equal and full enforcement should be the ideale and I refrain from nominating my other felony concerns for fear of being described as obsessed by Grits, although prison overcrowding appears to be on his mind, a bit too much in my opinion, he's even now won an award for his obsession. CONGRATULATIONS,Grits maybe a myopic focus aids in drawing an attention to a overlooked subject.

Doran why the labeling of 'angered' and 'pissed off', would you describe the person ringing the fire-bell to alert the community or volunteer firemen as being 'angry/pissed off' or is that just a subtle label to infer my emotions are in control of my intellect. I don't take it personal but I am seeing the exact same behaviors first learned and perpetrated on the unsuspecting public in Utah and Arizona now being done to Texas. If you think there aren't anymore items on their hidden agenda then get ready. The Schleicher County tax assessor is just now finding that taxes and fees have not been paid by businesses be operated from the YFZ Ranch that were not of record with the county, simple oversight or repeated behavior? Including the more recent filing of the 'Texas Heritage Trust' to be formed as a tenet of their religious precept of the United order, except this document contains far reaching powers to deny beneficiaries rights, than in the past, so be forewarned.

I am 'fear mongering' and 'causing hysteria' why the first moral question in the Bible is," Am I my brother's keeper " which I answer with a resounding,'Yes I am'! You really got a problem with wanting a religious demagogue to vent at, why don't you put down your label maker and just listen and think for awhile?

Anonymous said...

""I am 'fear mongering' and 'causing hysteria' why the first moral question in the Bible is," Am I my brother's keeper " ""

So you are a religious nutcase from the OTHER side aren't Jam? FLDS might be extreme to the left, but you are bordering on Shaker styled religious fundamentals. You are not my keeper, nor do you have the right to be. Your rhetoric is outright scary and indications are that you and your kind could be more dangerous than any FLDS encampment.

I enjoy my life with my ONE wife, however if someone wanted to have multiple wives, why is that ANY business of yours, Jamm? Law aside, is it that you are a typical evangelical that enjoys sticking your fiction novel in others faces and rant about "if it ain't in the book then it is illegal?"

You do understand that the bible is fiction, right Jamm? Anyone can write a story then claim for it to be true. Yours just happens to have been written in the 9th century. I wonder, If I claim the Brothers Grimm were actually two guys that all of their stories spoke through, can I get a .org address and save my tax money too?

Jam Inn said...

Anonymous, "I am my brothers keeper" may come from the Bible but it is a moral question, even if extracted from the Good Book. Many philosophical refrains come from religion hope that doesn't panic you too much. "A house divided against itself, can not stand" is oft quoted to A. Lincoln but comes from the Bible. I trust capitalizing the "B" in Bible doesn't wig-you-out. I am not a Evangelical or Shaker style fundamentalist, just a mild mannered Christian who read all of Warren's dictations and compared them to current Mormon teachings to discern the truer FLDS Church motives and motivations but I can see you are either agnostic or atheistic and could truly careless, even if another People's Temple Suicide results from the sects misguided leadership, wouldn't concern you at all. You didn't respond to my question on Congressman Leo Ryan's assassination doesn't concern you either, if public officials pay the ultimate price?

You seem to be an American of some lower kind, I wonder just how low? I trust you'll recall during trial who stated this information to you gratis.

doran said...

JAM, c'mon. We want to know: Why do the practices of polygamy and/or bigamy just burn you up? What is it about these two ways in which people voluntarily relate that infuriates you? That makes you rant as you have been doing here? That justifies you and others of your opinion in cramming your religious beliefs down on the rest of us? Why can't you just be accepting of your brothers and sisters who want to be in plural marriages, rather than wanting to see them in jail and/or burning in your favorite version of Hell?

Do you really think you do Christ's work, or that you do God's work of being your brother's keeper, by being so mean to your brothers?

Jam Inn said...

Well I was just flamin' yeah, duane and you took it hook, line and sinker.Oh, sorry I mean.....doran.

doran said...

Heavenly deception, JAM?

doran said...

C'mon, JAM, you are trying to avoid answering what must be for you a very difficult question to answer: Why are you so angry and vicious about plural marriages?

Were you in one which did not work out well?

Was there violence in that marriage?

Did someone betray your love?

It has to be something like that, because your obvious anger and rancor and bitterness is just not rational, otherwise.

Pirate Rothbard said...

Doran, you seem to be assuming Jam is a female. His profile says "male". He just acts hysterical like a girl.

doran said...

Aarrgh! Pirate.

Ye be right, mately, on both points.

But then, you assume the info in the Profile is correct, which requires a preliminary assumption that JAM is being honest. I'm not ready to make that assumption.

Jam Inn said...

Polygamy is only one aspect to the bigger picture that rises my objections. Basically, I staunchly oppose any renegade group who is breaking the law from moving and then importing their delinquency behaviors into Texas or Colorado, Nevada or South Dakota fot that matter. They showed up in Texas not because they saw the light but rather because they felt the heat. Check out their Utah/Arizona history, lawsuits, criminal records and corrupt local government charges before they ever set foot in Texas. The Arizona 8 polygamist men who were tried, including Dale Evans Barlow, were all charged in 2006 for sexual misconduct with a minor.

So you see I am not so much antiPolygamy as I am an opponent to crime waves moving intra-State.

karateka said...

FLDS 435 - Texas 0

Take that and Jam it inn your grill.