Tuesday, June 03, 2008

YFZ kids headed home

The news surrounding the Great Eldorado Polygamist Roundup is still churning fast and furious. Here are the most recent highlights:

First things first, Judge Walther signed the release order allowing most kids to go home. The blogger at I Perceive examines the release order and suggests that FLDS' attorneys may be the ones suffering from "Stockholm Syndrome."

Still bristling from her highly public bench slapping by the appellate courts, Judge Walther then convened a grand jury yesterday which issued 18 indictments, all of which so far remain sealed. No way to tell how many, if any, are related to the YFZ Ranch.

If they actually pursue charges, we'll soon find out whether Judge Walther's interpretation that the 1,700 acre ranch is a single "household" gets overturned or if the original search warrant holds up. Since the Third Court of Appeals already shot down her "one household" interpretation in the child custody cases, I personally doubt it will hold up on the criminal side, either.

Meanwhile, see this must-read story from the Deseret News in which state Rep. Harvey Hildebran described how he changed Texas' law specifically hoping to drive FLDS out of the state.

Also, an FLDS official says the group will henceforth abide by marriage age laws in whatever jurisdiction it operates.

In Canada, events in Texas have inspired the British Colombia Attorney General to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate FLDS members there. Actually pursuing charges, though, has proved difficult.

In a thematically related story, at The Mex Files we find a terrific discussion of polygamous Mormonism in Mexico, including connections between such groups and the country's most famous polygamist, Pancho Villa.

See more recent coverage from The Common Room.


Anonymous said...

Great by "I Perceive."

I perceived the same thing.

Any who wants to sign a petition to remove Walthers from the bench.

Go here:


Anonymous said...

It is not the "henceforth we will abide by all marriage laws" that is the concern. Rather, it is the young women who had their youth stolen from them by a bunch of hairy old men that should be concerning you.

Honestly, do you have no pity for the young lives stolen falsely in the name of the Lord?

Anonymous said...

"young lives falsely stolen in the name of the Lord." ????

You must be one of those baptist who helped kidnap, at gunpoint, 465 children...uh...which the Supreme Court made the great state of TX give back.

Have you no pity for the constitution --anonymous---'holier than thou.'

I hope bubba comes for you next.

Gritsforbreakfast said...

"young lives stolen falsely in the name of the Lord"

Hmmmmm ... You mean like when the law brought in buses from the local Baptist church to haul away FLDS kids en masse based on a hoax phone call?

Anonymous said...

"I perceive" makes a lot of good points, but I don't know that it was Stockholm Syndrome. To me, it looks more like paying the ransom to get the kids back.

The conditions are harmful to the children, but so is every additional day of foster care. I don't see a good option for the families.

I hope they can fight, case by case, once the children are returned.

Richard Wexler
National Coalition for Child Protection Reform

Anonymous said...

I wondered how the conditional release of the children could be required. Both the Supreme Court and the 3rd Court had their authority undermined by a judge who felt that she could impose her own conditions (ifs/ands/buts) on the release of illegally held citizens and by attorneys who chose not to appeal it.

Contrary to public opinion, CPS and family law judges have not had their wings clipped, but rather have seen their authority expanded as they are now free to ignore the orders of SCOTx.

Anonymous said...

Simply put, the TRLA lawyers sold the FLDS down the river.

To easy.

TRLA is funded by the fed. govt. LSC, Inc. and TX locals, power-political lawyering,societies, grants, etc.

GW Bush appoints the 11 member commission of the LSC.

How do ya'll think the TRLA got to be the 3rd largest legal aide org. in the nation? Did you know that?

How about a good guess--GW helping out his good bud-GW's lt. gov. Rick Perry with tons of 'competitive' LSC grant money. Did you all know that LSC was created by CONGRESS to give our tax dollars to--to then be doled out to local legal aide?

TRLA "Stockholm Syndrome"?--not really.

Try... follow the money.

It will get you to the correct explanation every time.

Anonymous said...

Let's see?

Jeffs was put away for 'accessory to a rape'---meaning...a made-up, when he wants even there.

Does anyone think we can get gov. Rick Prairie on charges of accessory to kidnapping 465 children?

Anonymous said...

falsely in the name of the Lord?

Most things done in his name are done falsely.

Anonymous said...

It's good to see that I Perceive works from the original sources.

But Stockholm Syndrome? I think that's straying a little far from reportage, into the realm of drama.

The ruling by the SCOT plainly gave Judge Walther leverage. TRLA had to take that into account in dealing with her.

Besides, I Perceive uses way too much bold, RED, italic, and BOLD RED ITALIC in his writing. Whew!

Tip to my favorite new blog-meister, I Perceive: a small amount of this dramatic emphasis and sensationalistic analogy - while sometimes just the right zing - goes a long way.

Though, after white-knuckling it through the three-hanky soap-opera, I agree that I Perceive is perceptive!

... But it's a matter perception. I think TRLA is a good bunch, did a good job taking a workable stance from within a compromised predicament.

Anonymous said...

''I think TRLA is a good bunch, did a good job taking a workable stance from within a compromised predicament.''

Compromised? I'll say--just follow the money.

'GOOD JOB?' you say. "Workable" for whom?

No one but CPS/Walther/TX.

The Supreme Court's "no evidence" against the accused still gets: House arrest essentially of hundreds of families/kids, psycho. exams, medical (i.e.: pelvic exams --may as well get right to it)--mug shots, fingerprints, travel limits, unannounced visits, searches, seizures, kids taken out at will by state.

You gotta be brain-dead.

You must be from there, aren't you?

duaneh1 said...

I believe the FLDS parents justed wanted their children home and took what they could get without going through a lengthy court battle over terms. Now that they have their children back, can they regroup and resume their fight to get the CPS conditions removed?

Anonymous said...

The FLDS needed their kid back, yes.

But, moreover...and this is what they missed (and where the lawyers misled):

To ensure the safety of the future of the children/families--the FLDS needed their rights preserved in the process.

Because, the FLDS, without their rights (which Walther coerced away--as she held the children captive) they have given up the utmost thing they needed to STOP CPS in its track from a life-long persecution by the state of Tx.

Now, the lawyers have left the door of the FLDS lives/homes wide open...for continued state-sponsored terrorism.

kbp said...

After I read the new order walthers put out yesterday, I wondered why she had backed off so much over the weekend.

A good explanation would be because she should and it was the correct thing to do, but walthers hasn't showed us she is capable of such a level headed approach to this mess yet.

The sealed warrants from that Grand Jury may explain it, as walthers moves on to Plan B.


To all that I keep seeing in various comments every place, I am clueless WTH any mean by TRLA "selling out" or "agreements" signed, blah, blah, blah....

The SCOT and the 3rd did NOT close out any of the suits faced by the parents of the 460+ children. They ruled on the action taken under the 262.201. All of the suits are still active.

If any of the Temporary Orders walthers put out are out of line, TRLA and attorneys for any other parents should challenge them.

If the orders are within what walthers can do, the parents need to get through the process the best way they can.

Anonymous said...

I think the new FLDS policy statement "clarifying" the marriagable age of females is very big, quite possibly of historically-pivotal dimensions.

I also think it gives us good cause to keep an eye peeled for further important 'upgrades' to the FLDS lifestyle.

This is an element of the assorted backfire phenomena that were predictable from Texas' rash approach to their unwanted new immigrant group in Schleicher Co., from the outset.

The malfunctions of the FLDS/YFZ just aren't that unfixable. Fix the problems, and how will Texas be able get a handle on them?

They evidently didn't give that matter much quality thought.

kbp said...

I should add that many of us DO suspect a law or 2+ were violated and the pregnant 14-17 YO (only one now), along with those that may have given birth to a baby conceived while under the age of consent, could possibly be a part of the evidence needed to show violations or a need for investigation.

I never said or pushed the theory there was no crimes. I do not recall the ranch residents saying that either. I did say the methods used to uncover any is very questionable and that taking ALL the children should not have happened.

The limits of what the CPS can use to say are actual reasons to suspect problems needing investigation still seem to be applied as if the ranch is a single household. I am not in agreement that the blanket orders look proper for all families.

I see little or no reason for suits for a few of the families we have learned specific facts about recently, but they need to be addressed individually and I believe they will be now.

If even a single child sex offense is uncovered, that may be reason enough for CPS or the court to suspect all at the ranch knew of it without reporting such.

My opinion is that none should go to the extreme opposite position of letting all off the hook. It's possible an INDIVIDUAL or more did commit a crime.

Anonymous said...

Anon 10:32

"You gotta be brain-dead.

You must be from there, aren't you?"

Actually, I like & appreciate a good 'opposition'. You certainly have the passion for the role. A bit of self-discipline would help. Passionate people can also have a degree of self-control. Drop the fantastic and obviously-nonsensical wild accusations, and whatever you have to say won't be covered by the dross.

I'm from the Olympic Peninsula, west of Seattle. Beautiful, rugged country. I live on the beach, and look across the water to Vancouver Island (Canada).

And no, I'm hardly braindead.

Anonymous said...

Hey: kbp

you write:

''If any of the Temporary Orders walthers put out are out of line, TRLA and attorneys for any other parents should challenge them.''

To address your confusion:

Are you NOT aware that TRLA lawyers negotiated with parties over the weekend to cook up the orders/'deal' that Walther's signed Mon.

...and the FLDS parents were required (coerced) by Walther--and were obviously advised by TRLA lawyers too, to agree to this order. FLDS had to agree with the 'deal' to 'sign' before Walther would sign it--per her!

Fri. Walther advised TRLA that she would not sign any order to vacate (and release the children)until the FLDS "signed first." That is what Walther's demanded when she walked off the bench Friday.

Subsequently, the TRLA lawyers/CPS, and crew meetings were held all weekend, reported all over the media..."negotiation" meetings ending late Sunday night.

Mon. elder Willie Jessop stated to media: "We wanted a better deal...but, we'll take it."

There will be no TRLA 'challenge' to Walther's order--as you want to believe--because, the lawyers approve of it and FLDS desperately followed along.

kbp said...

Anon 11:23

I disagree with your take on what happened.

I have read that many attorneys did not agree with each other and there were numerous plans submitted to walthers Monday morning, which I doubt she even took the time to read.

I have read nothing that said walthers was involved in any negotiations, only that some CPS representatives were involved some.

Any that mention "agree[ment]" have to base that on the parents not challeging the order, because there is no "agreement" to sign that I can find.

"...Lawyers representing FLDS mothers, children and the Texas Department
of Family and Protective Services met for several hours Sunday at a
state office building, hammering out a new order for Judge Barbara
Walther's consideration.

"It's not an agreed order," Hawkins said. "It's the judge's order. We're just hoping she'll sign an order. You can't get 400 lawyers to agree. We just went over her order and tried to clean up the language

"...Attorneys for two legal aid firms who successfully petitioned the Third Court of Appeals arrived at the courthouse at 8:15 a.m. and submitted their own order for the judge to sign. But Walther had already come up with her own plan, a slightly modified version of the proposal she made Friday."

I am open to being corrected by a credible source, but at this point, I still see it the same way I commented earlier.

Anonymous said...



''I have read nothing that said walthers was involved in any negotiations, only that some CPS representatives were involved some.''

* * *

Walther was in the last Friday's aborted--supposed 'hearing' to vacate, when she walked off the bench and demanded FLDS agree to and 'sign' first her new order.

Naturally, the lawyers were stunned. On Fri., CPS/TRLA had presented version 1 order and Walther presented said no, and presented her own version 2.

Lawyers said "no" to her version 2.

Walther suddenly jumped up and demanded 'all 38' parents 'sign' it and then she would--then, she abruptly left. This was detailed in Salt Lake Tribune which had both 'deal' versions posted--it may still.

These attempts to force an 'agreement' to her order are detailed in various media accounts--you can google if you want further 'credible' sources. We all understand that Walther did finally sign to vacate the TO.

Attorneys/CPS met Sunday too...that was reported in various media--trying to decide what to do with the thing. I don't have time to go back to haul out articles for you.

What they all settled on Mon. then, was Walther's order #2 that she presented and demanded 'be signed' on the previous bizzare Friday--with a few concessions to it.

I know, because I compared Monday's final order to Walter's Friday order--which at that time, Walther demanded FLDS must agree--as stated: 'sign it.'

Friday's version 2 (Walther's) is what the TRLA attorneys ultimately agreed to...with a few concession. How do you think those concession came about? You can go compare Fri. vs. Monday's order and you will see the concession Walther negotiated down.

And, what do you make of FLDS elder Jessop's comment reported in various media outlets --that I recall was Salt Lake Tribune, for one, and many more saying "we wanted a better deal..but, we'll take it" Jessop conceded.

I read these things from credible sources--not just one.

You, are free to look up any sources that suit you... just start googling.

rericson said...

As many have said, the main objective was to get the kids home. Once the kids are home, then the real "negotiations" begin.
From where I sit, it can be a reasonable affair, with FLDS and CPS preserving their dignity, or it can be constantly adversarial from the onset.....it will depend on how CPS approaches it.
When the media hoopala dies down, my gut tells me that Willie Jessop can be a pretty savvy negotiator....he is both smart and affable....
And I'm also guessing that Warren Jeffs may find Texas in line after Az. to prosecute him.....
Even in the instance of other underage births that may be found, I'm betting that prosecutions may start...may even have an indictment or two handed down, but in the absense of anyone from the FLDS claiming to be a "victim", and the hornets nest of challenging "God's Will", bargains are apt to be struck in short order....
In the one instance where there may be actual abuse with a victim, to wit a claim of unwillingness, we may see some real prosecution...and since we don't yet know the details of the young woman who is remaining in CPS care, there may be real cooperation from the FLDS....From all that I've seen, they don't want their children abused any more than anyone else does.....

The atty's didn't 'sell-out' their clients...given the temperment of Walthers, and much of the local sentiment against them, I think they did pretty well.....CPS is going to back way down when the media goes away....there will be a few cursory visits, up front...and hopefully there will be other, although way less splashy than yesterday's declaration about the age of marriage, 'systemic' changes.
The travel ban will expire....
the local rep. will still try to get ugly, biased laws passed....the FLDS will continue to pay their taxes....
And many of us are a little smarter, and a little more paranoid than before....
But maybe, through all of this, some folks have made a few unlikely friends....
And maybe the Flora's won't make quite as much money on their sensationalist books....

Anonymous said...


'CPS is going to back way down when the media goes away'


When the media goes away, Walther/Rick Perry will ensure the state-sponsored terrorism will escalate. Marleigh Meisner will gladly assist.

Media will be back--but, only to blare any forthcoming 'indictments' over the nation.

The daily state-sponsored terrorism will not get media exposure, which is sure to escalate---for the very reason 465 children were unlawfully taken at gunpoint.

Headmistress, zookeeper said...

I should add that many of us DO suspect a law or 2+ were violated and the pregnant 14-17 YO (only one now), along with those that may have given birth to a baby conceived while under the age of consent, could possibly be a part of the evidence needed to show violations or a need for investigation.

I never said or pushed the theory there was no crimes. I do not recall the ranch residents saying that either. I did say the methods used to uncover any is very questionable and that taking ALL the children should not have happened.

Kpb, agreed.

Rericson, I disagree that when the media goes away, CPS will play a kinder, gentler, more constitutional role. I think public scrutiny has been a very useful tool in preventing worse abuses- as evidenced by Elias-perciful's bitter diatribe against the media (which was amusing, since the MSM basically swallowed CPS pronouncements at a gulp) as well as others.

CPS objects to attention- hence the NDA required of the mental health workers, the removal of cell phones, an attempt to require Lori and Joseph Jessop not to talk to the media as a condition for getting their children back, the rude CPS worker who physically tried to remove Dan's arm from his wife's shoulder as she physically prodded 22 y.o. Louisa and her newborn baby away from the television cameras and towards their car, etc, etc.

This agency and those who work for it have shown that they cannot abide scrutiny, and there's a reason for that.

Anonymous said...

rerickson 01:17 -

Very good point, that "... CPS is going to back way down when the media goes away...".

We could go through the media-stories with scissors and fill a scrap-book with quotes by CPS reps & surrogates, all crafted & delivered purely in the face of & for the benefit of the media.

CPS has been conducting itself & communicating overweening in view of it's media-image. When the media hustle off to the car-wreck, we will see another demeanor from CPS ... and that will make a real difference 'on the ground'.


Anonymous said...

Headmistress, Zookeeper 01:53 -

While I do think from the pro-FLDS viewpoint things will go better with CPS after things cool off, I wouldn't go so far as to say the agency is chastened & reformed.

You are right about their scurrilous motives for general attention-sensitivity.

In this case, though, CPS' actions have been found wanting by a One-Two judicial punch, and they have to get themselves aligned with the law before the next round of legal proceedings get underway. Otherwise, the Court could end up just shutting them down.

Besides, CPS has had a chance to thoroughly examine the FLDS people, and I honestly imagine that they have been shocked at the lack of punishable behavior that's been uncovered. A decent case probably just isn't there, group-wise. Better to cut their losses and slip quietly off ...

rericson said...

Headmistress, et al.....
Again, I wasn't as clear as I should have been in this type of forum....sorry....
I have strongly advocated for ongoing, external oversight, since the inception of this mess...and long before that in a more general sort of way, for all CPS organizations/agencies/offices.....
I do believe that the many, many attorneys who have gotten involved in this will maintain a vigilent "eye" over things...and I do believe that Willie Jessop and the other leaders in the community are way smarter now about local politics and how to "play the game" than before this mess....so I am confident that if CPS behaves badly, the world will know about it....
I think that now that the kids are home, or when they are all home, the first order of business between the FLDS community, their lawyers, and CPS is to set up an oversight and advisory committee to define and work through issues.....
I just don't think even something that simple can happen in the midst of cameras and national media attention....
CPS, and actually any government agency, love the media....to the extent they can control it....they do everything they can to avoid wild-card situations....and the last two months has been a hotbed of wild-cards for them....*smile*

And there are lots of things that can be done as just 'good practice' within the community....
Set up a central information point. Everytime anyone is contacted by CPS or its agents, make sure it is documented....who contacted whom, what time was it, what was the stated purpose of the contact, what, if any, follow-up is required.....
Again, if any one in the community needs to contact any CPS person or agent, centrally document it...what, when, why, who was spoken to.....
After a few weeks look at it for patterns....
Make it available to the attys in the event they need to petition the court on the group's, or an individual's, behalf for any reason.....
At this central point keep a log of meetings that occur to discuss changes....keep a list of participants.....
log any changes that are made...when, by whom, for what purpose...then log their efficacy, or failure....

And most importantly, keep it all informal....do not publically announce the inception of this kind of record keeping, nor what/who the central point is....or make sure that the only 'true' copies of this documentation go to the atty's everyday, or every week....I mean the attys representing the community, not the individual attys....
Anyway, these are just a couple of suggestions off the top of my head.....

kbp said...


I'm not seeing so much that we disagree on in your revised approach there.

Most that could conflict with what I stated are your suppositions.

Some BIG concessions was the psychological / psychiatric exams parents would have been subject to, the limitations on time CPS can visit "households" and NOT having to sign an agreement that includes ALL the orders of the original custody order (with exception of the managing conservatorship vacated).

Comparing Walthers Friday and Monday plans only, and knowing Friday's required signatures agreeing with them, is overlooking the problems many complained of that are still a part of the recent order by-way of the original order that is a part of this most recent order.


On to a more entertaining laugh:
Are CPS liars??

rericson said...

The other thing I thought of, that may or may not be important....is always follow up every conversation or encounter with CPS with a letter....
If you talk on the phone...even if it is just a quick, "calling to see if everything is okay" type phone call, document it, and follow up with a letter, with a copy to the atty for the parent, and child(ren)...and one to the atty for the community...
i.e. Dear Ms. Smith,
Thank you for your call Tues, morning at 10:00 to check in with me and ask me if everything was going well.
Since in your phone call you did not ask me to do anything or provide you with any new information, nor did you request that I go anywhere or do anything extraordinary, at this time, that at this time all of our agreements remain the same. If this is not correct, please notify me immediately.
So and So.....

If they come to your house, if you go to their offices, anything...
I tell parents who are having trouble with schools to do this....and it has proven helpful time after time....
They keep records...you keep records.....

kbp said...

More humor?
DNA testing results arriving

"...She said the reports will be shared with attorneys, parents and DFPS - but not with anyone conducting a criminal investigation at this point.
"They would have to seek a court order [for that]," she said.

It's not real clear if the "She" above is walthers or "Janece Rolfe, a spokeswoman for the Texas Attorney General's Office".

Melanie said...

And if you notice in the top right corner of the Trib article KBP linked to just a short while ago, the 18 indictments from the convened Grand Jury of yesterday apparently have nothing to do with YFZ. Wonder what they *are* about?

Yeah, yeah, curiosity killed the cat and all that. Good thing I'm not a cat. ;-)

Anonymous said...

"A grand jury was convened Monday in Schleicher County, but Doran said that panel is only dealing with local issues and is not taking up cases related to child abuse allegations at the sect's compound. He said the Texas Rangers, who are the lead agency in the investigation, are moving deliberately."


Headmistress, zookeeper said...

Rericson, that makes sense, and it applies in many situations.
I spent many years as a military wife, and there were times I felt like there were people in the military whose entire job was simply to lie to everybody who called to ask them for information. Seriously, I think it's just a bureaucratic mindset. It was amazing to me how the answers to my questions would change when I would ask, "I'm sorry, I need to write this down to make sure I understand correctly. And to whom am I speaking? And what regulation is that you're quoting, again?"

TxBluesMan said...

A nationally recognized expert in Constitutional Law, Marci Hamilton has an interesting take on the recent SCOT decision at FindLaw.

I comment on it more extensively at my blog, Coram Non Judice.

In any event, I like her position. She thought the 3COA was wrong, and she hopes "that the Texas Attorney General’s Office soon files criminal charges against the obvious felons within the group, and holds very public trials that further educate the American public on the sexual abuse of American children."

Plus she's not bad looking...

Damn, smart and good looking....

kbp said...

I'm often curious, if charges are filed, how long it will take them to make any wife from the ranch realize she's a victim, if it can be accomplished.

TxBluesMan said...


LOL, that's easy.

When you file on the men for Bigamy, you file on the women as well...

Then they can understand that they were victimized and testify against the husband, or they can go to prison too.

Anonymous said...

Quoting Marci Hamilton is like the losers of the Super Bowl telling the winners what mistakes they made.

A more relevant quote:

Daughter of Sect Leader Gets Additional Protection

Willie Jessop, a spokesman for the F.L.D.S. group, said that to his knowledge there was no credible evidence that accusations of sexual abuse relating to the child in the court order were true. He said the girl’s lawyer was pursuing “an agenda,” and that the girl’s mother had tried to find other counsel.

“What we have in this situation is a very disappointing attorney who is pushing a different agenda than what her client wants,” Mr. Jessop said. He said he did not know exactly what the relationship was between Raymond Jessop and the girl, and he said his information about the accusations had come from the girl’s mother.


No word when the DNA results come back, but FLDS attorney and spokesman Rod Parker told us today that he wonders how authorities can prove any crime took place in Texas. In his mind, it's a possible issue of jurisdiction.

Read Exclusive: An Interview With Natalie Malonis, Lawyer Representing FLDS Children

She is the only ad litem to give a full interview that I know of.

kbp said...

Good point TBM, something I had overlooked!

"...or they can go to prison too."

...a "VICTIM" of the LAWS, and those that have violated SOME, while they selectively enforce a FEW.

I see now I should feel safe assuming many already "realize" they are a "VICTIM".

Expose a pinch of malice in that mix and we'll see a finite measure of just how much of a "victim" they were!

Melanie said...

Interesting interview with Doran in the Deseret News this morning:


And the confidential informant? Make that informantS:

Doran: All I can say — and you know any law enforcement officer's not going to uncover their confidential informant — confidential informant is plural. This is a person, or persons, that I have relied on the last four years to educate me on this group. A person that, if something came up, I can call this person, run it by 'em and they're going to be in the know of what this means, or who this is, or what's going on in this particular situation. This confidential informant did not lead up to this raid. This confidential informant had no part of that. During the search warrants, this person — persons, actually — was called upon to clarify some things, evidences that were uncovered and bring in some of the FLDS teachings that would match these particular evidences that were uncovered.

TxBluesMan said...


How are they a 'victim' of the laws?

The FLDS can't have it both ways. Either the multiple wives were free to marry (or not marry), or they were forced into these marriages. If they were forced, then they should testify to that effect, and they will be treated like the victims that they are.

If, however, they elected, of their own free will to violate the felony laws on Bigamy in this state, then they should be held accountable.

Unless of course you believe that women, due to their gender, deserve a free pass for felonious conduct.

kbp said...

"...LAWS" is plural.

I would go into details, but we both know already you approve of ALL the conduct by the authorities involved, especially the FIVE DAY time span in which poor Sarah was left unattended that we are yet to hear a credible explanation for.

I do see a problem with Texas getting them to testify. They have no immunity as a wife, but retain their rights not to incriminate themselves. The next crime in line for them is then contempt of court, if they're granted immunity to all testimony.

One would hope any punishment fits the crime, but we see clearly where Texas was heading with this mess. The evidence of crimes could be lacking or suppressed in this matter. You may be stuck with only the Bishop's Records and/or the assumption that their beliefs is proof that parentage of a bastard child - a preference of the State of Texas - could not be utilized as a defense.l

rericson said...

Here's my take on some of this...perhaps one of you legal types....other than the bluesman....*smile*...sorry bluesman, but I already know what you think....could correct me, or weigh in with greater clarity, if I'm way off base...
Bigamy is what it is in many states...and they don't really count, here, because Texas is different in that it rewrote it's laws with the specific intent of "catching" the FLDS....
They created an expanded definition, beyond the usual 'one won't marry another while still legally married to another...yada, yada...'
So I'm thinking that this wouldn't pass muster in the courts..'cept maybe Walthers court...she doesn't seem to need the benefit of testing constitutionality against her rulings....
If Texas is going to try to prove, despite some legislator's admissions that it was crafted to address the FLDS, that it is a broad, 'serves all' law, then lots of "baby mamas" and the multitudes of "other women" ought to be seen being paraded before the courts in short order....no????

Headmistress, zookeeper said...

Dallas News has 1500 pages of emails between officials leading up and during and after the raid- obtained through the Freedom of Information Act. They've posted some excerpts. Initially, they planned to separate the mothers and children secretly in another location, but the judge over-ruled that: The women and children were not to be told until they were on the buses that all but nursing mothers would be separated into different living quarters from the children.

"Salvation Army indicated it would not allow the conflict associated with separation to occur in its facility, which is why the separation would occur at a secure location prior to entering the Salvation Army grounds," Ms. Jordan wrote.

The judge in charge of custody of the children eventually rejected the transfer. Instead, the separation occurred on April 14, without incident. But the e-mails show that field officers reported back to the governor's office virtually minute by minute on how it proceeded.

Anonymous said...

Texas' Bigamy Law

Legislatures, State & Federal, are empowered to pass laws as they see fit. The courts, on the other hand, have the duty to evaluate those laws under the Constitution, etc. Bad laws come, and then bad laws go.

This Bigamy law is fairly popular in some Texas circles. But it's a weak law. It is easy to find big holes in it. So-called 'bigamy' is very widespread in society, on a practical basis. Yet Texas 'threatens' to target select groups with this ol' bloody shirt.

For Texas to 'push' the Bigamy law and apply it, likely leads to Appeals Courts, and perhaps Federal Courts, and that could easily be the end of it.

I suspect a fair case can be made, that the Texas Bigamy statute is quite close to the old Jim Crow system.

So Texas has the special-tailored law, but if they use, it'll probably fold on them and leave them both without a law, and open to further court action.

Anonymous said...

Although the discussion has moved forward I didn't read these comments till now.

So I just wanted to make a quick comment voicing opposition to "advice" offered to "I Perceive" way back in the beginning of this comment section.
"Besides, I Perceive uses way too much bold, RED, italic, and BOLD RED ITALIC in his writing. Whew!

Tip to my favorite new blog-meister, I Perceive: a small amount of this dramatic emphasis and sensationalistic analogy - while sometimes just the right zing - goes a long way."
Actually the majority of the folks I know PREFER this type of online style.
It enables the reader to cover large amounts of material (as well as links etc.)quickly - while keeping various "aspects" of what is being discussed mentally "organized" - also helpful later for remembering (or finding again)important points.

The emphasis shown is both clear and warranted.

Not excessive in any way.

These issues affect all of us and passion pertaining to them - being shown - is NEEDED.

Those wishing for more "watered down" reporting can find it aplenty in the mainstream media.

Hat's off to "I Perceive" and keep up the great work!

NOTE: My "incorrect use" of quotation marks has also been "scolded" online. :D

As far as I know though some amendment or another (Perhaps it's the First) allows this sort of individual expression! :D

Gee, I better go hunt down that Bill of Rights right away . . .
Now where, oh where, did that document wander off to?

subpatre said...

TxBluesMan wrote: "A nationally recognized expert in Constitutional Law, Marci Hamilton..."

Marci's claim to fame is proposing to 'permanently fix' child sex abuse by eliminating any statute of limitations, and says the death penalty for underage sex is "a good sign". Hamilton would electrocute half of Americas teenagers and not blink an eye: it's for the children after all.

Hamilton's article on the FLDS subtitled "Why the Arguments Claiming Due Process Violations and Religious Freedom Infringement Have No Merit" was ruthlessly gutted by both the Texas 3rd Circuit and unanimous Supreme Court. TxBluesMan's reliance on her uninterrupted string of errors is an excellent sign for his opposition.

Anonymous said...

Headmistress, Zookeeper 12:47 -

My, sounds like the Dallas News has carved themselves off a fascinating chunk of research! I'll be watching closely for their reports.

Thank you!

kbp said...


I do not think the Bigamy law can be vacated because of the changes made. I see a better chance that ALL bigamy laws will be vacated.

kbp said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Subpatre 01:43 -

I appreciate your insight & research on Marci Hamilton's work. I had identified that she is an isolated & insulated academic figure, without public experience, but I had not been able to pursue the question of her relevance.

I have noted that TxBluesMan is prepared to jump to extravagant conclusions from a singular, dubious datum, but at least he did publicly rescind his excess.

I like that TxBluesMan is prepared to dig for the actual details of the law, but I worry that essential principles seem at times to be secondary to his aims.

Maybe something like that happened with Marci, too.

kbp said...

Thanks HM!
A FIVE DAY WAIT, while Sarah had to struggle alone to protect the lifes of herself and that unborn child?

"... The governor's office was first informed there was a problem on April 1, when CPS and Texas Rangers said they were planning to raid the polygamist ranch in two days – on a Thursday. The impetus was a call from a 16-year-old pregnant girl – later determined to be a hoax – who reported PHYSICAL...ABUSE by her 49-year-old "spiritual husband."

Anonymous said...

Marci Hamilton Published Papers

The Professor Marci A. Hamilton Series is an index-page of 111 of Prof. Hamilton's papers. The papers themselves are on the FindLaw website.

This page is a fast & easy way to scan the titles that Ms. Hamilton has published.

Down on the 2nd page Google search returns for 'marci hamilton', there is a link to the index of the instances of the use of "Marci Hamilton" as a tag on the www.WordPress.com website (there are over 2 million blogs on this site).

On this tag-index, we see a couple dozen blog-entries listed, all of them from a single blog; "cupblog". This blog could be useful in providing a 'popular' view of Ms. Hamilton. A number of these entries relate to the FLDS case.

Though "cupblog" has a homey name, and is easy to read (with many threads of interest in the FLDS case), 'cup' turns out to stand for "Cambridge University Press".

Gritsforbreakfast said...

I don't personally believe Bluesman is Sheriff Doran, though anything's possible. His comments never struck me as made by someone with access to direct information. If true, it would be ridiculously over the top faux pas - it's really hard to imagine Doran, or anybody, could be THAT dense.

Headmistress, zookeeper said...

There's no way Texas Blues Man is Doran.
Have you read any of Doran's interviews? The man is really dimwitted. TBM is pigheaded, but that's not the same as dimwitted.=)

Seriously, TBM is far too articulate to be Doran, just as Philo on those message boards spells far too well to be Flora.

Anonymous said...

Search Google with 'txbluesman', and you will see that somebody using that handle has been playing the blogs & forums & boards for years.

The only suspicious aspect that I noticed about the TxBluesMan digital-trail, is that on the forums I looked into, though he had posted a large number of times, all the entries appeared to have been deleted. That's unusual. Normally, a blog or forum won't let a user delete the contributions you've made.

TxBluesMan may be an unusual character of some kind (that would apply to several of us.. ;-), and he may have used some kind of unusual pressure to get his posts deleted (he does have some legal knowledge..), but it doesn't seem likely to me that he'd be Sheriff Doran's alter ego (largely because because that would be a really serious indiscretion on Doran's part..).

Less'n we can trawl some of those old message-caches he left 'n catch him in a slip-up...

kbp said...

Doran can't remember what he said two sentences back.

He paints himself into a corner ALL THE TIME and can't see it. But never, or seldom, conclusive.

TBM is a master at sly, misleading posts, and wrong at every prediction so far.

It's hard to imagine Doran is any quicker hiding behind a keyboard.

Dale said...

This is a great blog you've got going her. I find it interesyting that so many people are trying to go after "Those damn plygs" yet nobody can make charges stick. I hope that they do file bigamy charges against the FLDS in Texas only because I know that it will be overturned and result in the legalization of polygamy.

Anonymous said...

Does it really matter who TxBluesMan is? He's not Doran and he's not evidence so... irrelevant.

kbp said...


I tell of TWO different people when I described TBM and Doran.


On this or any case, exposure of violations by those holding positions of authority over the public is quick and easy, if you're talking about blogs and message boards.

The media has not pressured anyone for an explanation as to why it took five days to save Sarah, nor many other questions that should be asked..

That media tide is turning now. The Dallas News demanding emails is the start of where the media will go.

It looks like the AG's office is leaking information to Brooke in a desperate manner. And that's telling of possible convictions of a man in prison, not criminals on the loose. They are still looking a little short on WHO they saved all those children from.

The media did not turn in the Duke case for about 4-5 months, so I see better coverage in this case as early as it is. Walthers brought better attention to what all this case is about besides saving children.

Mike Nifong's first involvement in the Duke case was March 24, 2006. The bar did not file on him until after the December 15th hearing, at which the DNA data withheld was exposed. That's right at nine months later.

Two years later, not all known about the Duke case has been revealed. The civil complaints are just now in the process of hearings for summary judgment. It is not a fast process.

There are many facts known in this YFZ Ranch mess that point to a conspiracy, but many loose ends yet to be uncovered, nothing fully conclusive on it. It will not happen quickly, it never does.

It is also very difficult to get public figures that may be corrupt. They police themselves really.

It's not over yet, there is much yet to follow.

Anonymous said...


Find out what Sheriff Doran's birthday is, and I can tell you if it's a match for TxBluesMan.

Anonymous said...


Geat Scott - and we call this the land of the free and the home of
the brave? On my blog, I was about to write a post implying that that whole FLDS raid was a conspiracy ...mainly involving one state legislator (Harvey Hildebran),local officials (Sheriff David Doran)and a judge(Walther) - in whose court they had their assurance would set aside her integrity and simply make
rulings from the bench consistent with the goals of that conspitacy ...to run FLDS out of the state of Texas (and egreiously violating the civil rights of that religious group in the process)

But, thanks to the fine investigative reporting efforts of the Dallas Morning News we now have hard evidence that it was indeed a conspiracy, but on a massive state wide scale...going all the way up to the governor's office (and showing his complicity in that conspiracy). It has been reported that these same players are now trying to contrive criminal charges
against some of the members of FLDS.

Well, lets put the shoe on the other foot. My advice to FLDS
is not to lay back again and simply be grateful for getting the
children back.If you truly want to be left alone you must stand up for your rights by going on the offense. Get a recognized civil rights attorney and file a civil rights suit in the federal court for actual and punitive damages (including injunctive relief against state and local officials from further interference in
your religious freedoms), I think you can win a large monetary award against those weasels for their conpiracy to violate your civil rights.

But even more important, file a civil rights complaint with the US Justice department against all those conspirators that knowingly,
wilfullly and intentionally set out to violate your civil rights. Its time to start putting these weasels in jail...and to deter others who,
in the future, would attempt to use their official capacities to
violate the constitutional rights of individuals or groups. Lets
hope the national media will finally start reporting this outrage.


Dale said...

Please excuse my post from above. I'm not an idiot, Just a sloppy typer. ;)

The other day rubber boots aka Rick Ros did try to play dumb with me saying "who is this Rick you keep referring to?" Yet he kept answering each and every post directed towards Rick. He is Rick Ross in my book. I haven't had much to do with philo but I have read his/her posts. I don't doubt that this is Flora in disguise. As for Texas Blues Man...I'm not sure but it is possible...

Dale said...

Wouldn't it be libel rather than slander anyway?

kbp said...

Good article covering a few topics.

CPS open's it's mouth!
"While the Texas Rangers and state attorney general's office pursue possible criminal charges against certain men in the sect, CPS says it needs the test results to establish family relationships.
"That's a piece of the puzzle we don't have, to figure out who we're going to be working with," Ms. Pulliam said. "

Tell us again WHY you needed DNA testing: "forged records!" ;)>

Media CYA

""The governor is concerned that the legal process by which the children were removed from their home is overshadowing the sexual abuse allegations at hand," said Perry's deputy press secretary, Allison Castle.

"He is very troubled that the children, especially those most at risk for abuse in this case – young girls – are being sent back to the very compound that is riddled with uncertainty, potential for harm and remains at the center of a very serious criminal investigation," Ms. Castle said. "

It sounds to me like they're absent evidence needed to prove those problems unless they send a couple young girls to live with a specific prisoner. At least not unless they find the one they claim is suspected of something illegal with Warren Jeff's 16 YO daughter is living there in hiding.

Of course, if the GUV throws it out there, it's an important message (or diversion)

The Mystery

" Ms. Malonis [Attorney for Warrne's daughter] said CPS and law enforcement had evidence that the girl was sexually abused, though they don't believe she's ever been pregnant."

What can that "evidence" be other than testimony from that girl?

Anonymous said...


TxBluesMan birthday. See lower-left corner.

Kathy G said...

Aren't they using photographs for evidence? Maybe that's all they've got. A picture of her with someone.

kbp said...


Just awhile back i was searching for connections that might tie McCown or others to any of the Justices on the SCOT. After finding all the Committees, Commissions and other groups many of the same people are on, and suckin' the guv's tit there, I actually said to myself:

DAMN, is everybody crooked in Texas?

I do not think there was a big master plan for a conspiracy that involved everybody, but it's looking like those that were not involved in stretching all the laws, to get where they are in this mess, have certainly been enablers for those that are.

TxBluesMan said...

Thanks Grits.

Thanks Headmistress, I think. LOL (pigheaded is one of the more complimentary terms that have been used...) ;)

Ted, you may want to be careful on your Google Search, as was noted on one of the other boards, there are several of us with the handle TxBluesman - all but one of them isn't me... Plus, the birthdates that are listed on those other persons are all different, and not mine.

kbp said...


I doubt they have any pictures that would be needed to prove sexual abuse!

Anonymous said...

TxBluesMan 08:02 -

You see my real name on every post I make. You want to defuse curiosity about yourself, it would be easy enough to do.

The "Texas BluesMan" moniker has overwhelmingly been associated with African-American Texas musicians. Throughout 'modern times'.

Like I said at the top, I would be very surprised if Sheriff Doran was using an on-line alter-ego (or several), but it's of course not impossible, and there is no harm in investigating.

rericson said...

I'm sorry to join this 'off-topic' stuff...but I just can't leave this one alone.....
I have no doubt that your dog is a crappy hunter/retriever/whateverer...
Any good trainer/handler KNOWS you reward a dog for doing what is expected....you NEVER have negative consequences in good training.....
And, by the way, my last foxhound was number 1 hound in the country for a while back in 2005-6.....

Your dog trainig skills are about as good as your skills as a prognosticator.......

kbp said...


Doran Williams never agreed w/TBM that I know of. IIRC, quite the opposite.

kbp said...

I should add. Doran Williams posted quite a few comments here, before TBM started the blog.

I'm not coming to any conclusions, but I lean heavily to towards TBM and the sheriff being different people.

TxBluesMan said...

LOL, sorry Ted - that's not me...

In addition to that one (43, unknown city), there is one in Royce City (44, with a pic), one in Dallas (unknown age), one on xanga (no info), one in Amarillo (no info), a musician (with videos), one in Kyle (50, white, with photos), and one in Douglasville (31, white, pic).

Sorry, but I can't be all of them...

TxBluesMan said...


I think you have Doran Williams, an Austin area lawyer, and Sheriff Doran confused. Gems thinks I am the later, not the former.

And I think Doran W. and agreed once, but we realized what we were doing and quickly got back on opposite sides....

Kathy G said...


I thought they were claiming that the picture of Jeffs kissing a young girl was evidence of sexual abuse.

Anonymous said...

ChooseLaw listing for Doran Williams, Texas attorney.

Headmistress, zookeeper said...

TxBluesman, it was a compliment- backhanded, I admit, but I'm pigheaded, too.

There's just no way I can believe the two are the same. TBM writes well. He uses proper grammar and syntax. He's often stunningly wrong, but he doesn't contradict himself in the same paragraph. He is not stupid. Sheriff D. comes across as several french fries short of a Happy Meal, and slightly underdone at that.

Here's some excerpts from Sheriff D's interview at the Deseret News that illustrate what I'm talking about [My snark in brackets. I restrained myself]:

"Where there is crimes that are being committed, and outcries being made

The ones that are being returned, that was Child Protective Services' goal from the get-go is to find out who were the victims

not all of the children that were requested to be brought forward was brought forward to Child Protective Services.

I didn't cultivate this relationship over four years for this plan to unfold the way I did. I'm not the mastermind behind it, we were simply cooperating with Child Protective Services. It's in our lap. [frankly, I think if TBM was the mastermind, he'd have no trouble admitting it]

The second search warrant was by the Texas Rangers based on evidence that was located on the property during the initial assistance with Child Protective Services. That's when further evidence of crimes were seen in plain sight by law enforcement.[the man sounds like a caricature of Barney Fife]

That is very incorrect information. That is information that's being put out there that is not accurate.

Upon initially approaching the gate with the Rangers, a phone call was made by the FLDS at the gate and they produced their phone to me

[this next one is my favorite, and I think it clinches the argument that TBM and this idgit are not the same person. TBM just couldn't talk like this]:
A dialogue was made between myself and this gentleman that proclaimed to be Dale Evans Barlow. That still left in question, the victim Sarah.

"A dialogue was made?" Shudder.

even for the fact that we were on the property and still looking for the victim

confidential informant is plural. This is a person, or persons, that I have relied on the last four years to educate me on this group. A person that, if something came up, I can call this person, run it by 'em and they're going to be in the know of what this means

This confidential informant did not lead up to this raid. This confidential informant had no part of that. During the search warrants, this person — persons, actually — was called upon to clarify some things, evidences that were uncovered and bring in some of the FLDS teachings that would match these particular evidences that were uncovered.

[This is my second favorite]:
If there was no problem, there wouldn't be a lot of victims coming away from that culture doing outcries.

[Doing outcries? It sounds like some kind of freaky ritual]

The second search warrant was produced because there was obvious evidence in plain sight of crimes, that's acting on the second scope of the search."

TBM just doesn't communicate that poorly.

Headmistress, zookeeper said...

One last point. When TBM refers to himself as not an outsider, he's not talking about being on the inside of the investigation- he's talking about being a proud Texan who hates non-Texans telling Texas what to do.

That is a typically Texan attitude.

kbp said...


I did not get confused. John brought Doran Williams up. Read back up in the comments here if needed.

Melanie said...

OFCOL, how juvenile can a grown man get?! (And I'm assuming a lot, here, I know...)

I really think that the real Sheriff Doran has been just a WEE BIT BUSY the last two months, don't you? He wouldn't have time to flit around the blogosphere being a TxCPS apologist.

Good grief!

Anonymous said...

JohnLester 09:16 -

And I'm still digging...others no doubt are too...

Actually, I would not be surprised if you do find gold in them-thar hills ... but it may not be exactly where or in the form first expected.

Whatever we do & practice with intent & concentration - we become better at.

I think the FLDS raid is one of the rankest, most suspicious operations I've seen in a good while (and I've been observing for a good while..). Please, do keep digging!

Anonymous said...

See, this is John Lester actually posting.

All I did was click Name/URL instead and now I'm SuzieQ

Anonymous said...

Now this is John Lester posting under

Headmistress, zookeeper said...

that was *very* unpersuasive on its own face, but even moreso when you include all that I've already provided.

Um, I hate to tell you, but all you've already provided was pretty much wild surmises and disconnected speculations hardly worth my time. I mainly engaged because I was already planning a post of Sheriff Doranisms. If you really can't see the differences in the way the two express themselves, then you really aren't a very credible judge. It's glaringly obvious that TBM has pretty good communication skills and the Sheriff has some pretty smooth, teflon like areas of his brain where grammar never stuck.

Because Doran's first name is the same as the Sheriff's last name they must be related? There's a kid in my town that spends a lot of time at our house named Doran, maybe he's related, too.

And that spirit you're sensing? Are you sure it didn't come out of a bottle?

I just don't see any evidence that they're the same, and I see plenty of indications they are not, and I see every indication that you're making bricks with no straw and precious little water.

This is a very silly discussion, and I've said all I have to say on it.

TxBluesMan said...

Basically outsiders means all non-Texans.

It's fairly clear from other posts, where I've quoted Kinky Friedman...

Anonymous said...

Since Sheriff Doran has, as noted, been pretty busy & tied up & in unusual contact with lots of other officials much of the time for the last couple months, it does follow that crediting him with additional instances of cloaked online personas, only makes the difficulty all the greater.

For Doran to be sustaining ... this exchange right now ... in the guise of TxBluesMan ... obviously raises the question ... where is the real Sheriff Doran, right now, and what is he doing?

Has he in a position to participate in the blog-thread for the last few hours? How about other occasions when TxBluesMan has been active online? What was Doran doing during those times?

If we assume that several online figures are all Doran, we can obviously check to see if they were at times simultaneously active. For Doran to pull off simultaneous alter-egos on multiple blogs, he too would have to be a red-hot MENSA, and a 150 WPM typist with extremely exceptional computer-skills.

kbp said...

Sheriff Doran's tell all session!

"I did not have the power to step in and stop this," Doran said. "The state of Texas had an investigation. They had a call, an outcry of a child they had to investigate and we are there to support that type of investigation. Where there is crimes that are being committed, and outcries being made, we're going to go in and investigate it...

We were searching for a victim on the property. She has not been located yet...

So we still had to go forward like there was a victim..."

And from the reporter: "Even today, Doran remains unsure if Sarah really exists or is a hoax... "

"Even today..." We can expect him to TRY for excuses why they went in, but they've carried that BS 'she might be...' too far! Somebody from the underwriter must have given that directive: "KEEP SARAH ALIVE UNTIL AFTER THE CIVIL COMPLAINT IS SETTLED". We may hear about the Sarah search continuing for a few years!

"[asked] Do you believe the call was a hoax?

Doran: Hard to say. We uncovered a Sarah Barlow that matched that description, and based on their fear of talking to law enforcement, who's to say? "

Was that Sarah Barlow Johnson, 83 YO, or another Sarah that had forged identification papers showing another name, which could not be trusted?

What did they know when?

Deseret News: ...sheriffs from numerous counties, an armored personnel carrier, snipers.... You can't just call all those resources in overnight.

Doran: Yeah, you can. When the call came in, the plan was formulated immediately how to logistically go in there and do it...

"When the call came in..." So we know the plan was being put together FIVE DAYS before the actual raid to save Sarah started. We know Long did not talk to the shelter worker to get the details (physical abuse) needed for the affidavit until FOUR DAYS LATER. We know news reporters will not seek a credible explanation for that delay, YET.


"So it was requested to do a residential to residential search."

At the "single household"?

"I'm not the mastermind behind it, we were simply cooperating with Child Protective Services... I did not bring this on them. The call came in to assist Child Protective Services."

Shift the blame! Wait, what about the arrest warrant? Oh yeah, that's the the Rangers. Wasn't Sheriff Doran's fault, he just carried out the Judge's warrant and maybe the water bucket.

"That's when further evidence of crimes were seen in plain sight by law enforcement... We're talking about teenage girls, underage girls that were pregnant or had children. That's when that whole thing started surfacing...

Basically, they were avoiding Child Protective Services and a lot of those were underage pregnant girls."

What crime? Eliminate the "looksy test" and they have ONE MAYBE, subject to DNA test results! He's been practicing those lines!

"[Told when handed phone;] 'This gentleman is Dale Evans Barlow.' We never could get a full confirmation if indeed it was Dale Evans Barlow, we could not get full confirmation of his location.

You've got to understand we're acting under a search warrant and time is essential and we're acting upon a call. None of those things could be verified at that particular moment in time."

Now, as we review how essential time was, to better understand why they couldn't spare any time for a call to the probation officer then, lets go back to; "...We were held up at the gate for about two to three hours", ALL 700+ were too busy!

"What people need to understand is, even though we were out there, even for the fact that we were on the property and still looking for the victim — the victim was still calling in on crisis hotlines not only in Texas but other locations."

AND I am certain they called to have this cell phone location triangulated to determine where it was, because that IS a service the cell phone companies are REQUIRED to provide and can be handled within minutes.

Anonymous said...

John Lester 10:17 -

"clayton, I do believe that you are possibly bluesy."

Honestly, I was wondering how long it would take you to notice! ;-)

In fact, I, TxBluesMan, and Doran Williams (and some others) all have similar writing-styles and share some analytic approaches.

But we can probably be differentiated.

TxBluesMan, can you calculate the nuclear reactor criticality formula? Do you know what type of nuclear technology the Chernobyl reactor used? And what happened when it failed?

I can offer similar tests for any other person you might think is a shadow of me ... and stump statistically 100% of them, cold.

I'm on the West Coast. Just sundown (pretty far north). Ate dinner, did the dishes, watered my houseplants, and ran 4 online personas all the while (not ;-).

The gold may indeed be somewhere in them-thar hills John, but it may not be in the first or easiest spot you scratch at. ;-)

kbp said...

More Sheriff
"Saying he wants to counteract a "propaganda campaign" by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Schleicher County Sheriff David Doran this afternoon said he expects indictments in the case...

Doran, who said he is talking to only a limited number of media
outlets, told the Standard-Times that controversial photos released of sect leader Warren Jeffs deeply kissing the 12-year-old daughter of ranch leader Merrill Jessop are "just the beginning" of evidence
likely to be released in the case."

Judging by what he's said here, I feel it's a second clue that he's getting directions from above to talk to the press. I doubt those instructions included any directive for him to reveal WHY he's talking to the press!

"to counteract"

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the fun all - G'night!

Melanie said...

"And you're possibly Blues too, anyways. It's easy to post on blogger.com using multiple accounts."

I *think* this was pointed to me, since this post starts off talking about the Sheriff having lots of time because he's management, etc.

Yes, it's easy to post on Blogger using multiple accounts, but TBM could NOT post under my account when my name is highlighted/linked to my profile. Now, if it was an unlinked name, sure, one can make up whatever name they want. But I *always* post under my own profile wherever I go, and I've been on Blogger 2003.

And for cryin' out loud, I don't even agree with TBM on most of these issues!

And as DHM says, this is a really silly argument, and this is the last time I'll engage in it.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter if someone close to the raid and investigation were posting on the blogs and comments, would it? Nobody else would really change their mind, whether for or against. So I don't really care.

(On a side note, is anyone else having trouble staying logged in to Google apps? I can't stayed logged in to Blogger to save my life, and several other things as well.)

rericson said...

Ted Clayton,
Just an FYI....I clicked on your profile, went to your link for "pics", and immediately got two viruses....fortunately my anti-virus program picked them up and cleaned my computer...
But unless you want them there for some reason, you might want to clean up that link....

kbp said...

Speaking of most investigations, the sheriff, or one in his position, do not have the right to free speech limited any.

If the prosecuting attorney is involved in an investigation, which Allison Palmer is, and there are known suspects that may face charges for alleged crimes, which they have been telling of from the start, then the prosecutor could face sanctions from the court and/or ethics violations of the state bar's rules. The prosecutor is held responsible for all parties on her side, more less.

The only thing I know of a sheriff, officer, or possibly the prosecutor could face might be civil charges for slander or libel or a complaint under a 1983 in federal court.

I'm open to correction here by any more familiar with the judicial system.

All are tough complaints to make, because, if Texas is like most other states, the officers have a qualified immunity and the prosecutor an absolute immunity, which a plaintiff has to first get past in the process.

The most likely problem for any of them would be a violation of the policies of their employment. That could be a reason also for the civil complaint, or only a reason for them to police themselves!

What is right or wrong does not always determine if it is legal or illegal.

Melanie said...

Preliminary DNA info is starting to trickle in: our of the 599 samples taken, any guesses on how many were adult men?


Something to hide, much?

CNN video here:


Anonymous said...


The Dallas Morning News has possibly busted this case wide open and all y'all do for 9 hours last night is debate who TBM really is?

The real identity of whoever is lurking behind the TBM alias is pretty much irrelevant. The question is the substance of his posts. I think that the case law citations, plus the succinct definition he gave me of mental competence in the legal setting proves his being a lawyer, probably one who's been practicing for some time.

Y'all might want to reflect on how much of Scott's bandwidth and how much personal energy this foodfight has taken when it could have been spent on more constructive discussion. Misdirection is very much a part of warfare.

kbp said...

It's the "FramerZ" I've encountered before. Never had a problem from it and never could find anything that defined what it was very well.

Google on it, but there is not much on it and Microsoft or Symantec (Norton) had zero on it when I searched a couple weeks ago.

kbp said...

Still a mystery??

Warren's 16 YO daughter:
" "This child is an identified victim of sexual abuse," Natalie Malonis [her attorney] wrote in court papers....

A man named Raymond Jessop is also prohibited from having any contact with her. The order does not say what the relationship is between him and the girl."

None of the articles have mentioned "sexual assault..." (statutory rape), only "abuse", so I am having trouble figuring out what it might be.

It is also ordered she can't contact her father, so I wonder if she was "assigned" to marry this Raymond Jessop by her father, but just had not gone through with the ceremony yet.

The way they convicted as being a party involved in a rape has to open one's mind up and lower the barrier on what could be classified as "sexual abuse".

Anonymous said...

Rericson 09:49 -

Thanks! I left a msg on your profile e-mail addy...

Anonymous said...

A tribute to Brooke Adams:

How One Reporter Challenged the Official Story on Texas Polygamy

With the Texas Supreme Court's recent order to return all of the children of the Fundamental Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to their families, it's worth noting that at least one reporter was questioning the raid's legality from day one.

TxBluesMan said...


What are you going to do if that happens and it doesn't (which it won't) come back to a West Texas IP?

Wouldn't that give him (and me) the same grounds to go after you for libel? Or for that matter, Doran Williams, who most assuredly is neither David Doran or myself. If you had done your research properly, you would have found numerous references to Doran Williams being involved with the ACLU in Texas, going back years and years. Grits probably knows him from his own work with the ACLU.

You've already proved malice (wanting him fired, subject to an 1983 suit, etc). You have no evidence, source, or other means of tying us together. Basically you are just attacking due to your hatred and biases, and in the process involving the SLC Trib and Grits, on whose sites you are publishing your attacks. This is after you accused me of making a 'thinly veiled death threat' against you for quoting Grits on Brookes blog.

It was immediately after I pointed out that Grits had made a comments on executions (the some people need killin, or probation for murder link), and that a quote of his comment was not a threat towards you, that you began this crusade with no basis in fact.

I don't particularly mind - I'm anonymous, using a nom de plume, and have no real concern. In the cloaked manner of the internet blogsphere, I could be anyone - the old, fat, and balding guy, or a 14 year old kid - you have no way of knowing, and anything I say should therefore be weighed on that basis. On the other hand, the other people you are linking to my online nickname and persona are clearly identified real people who can be harmed by your unsupportable allegations.

But please, keep on posting...

kbp said...

The states CYA media moves are not helping them much! ;)>

Trauma of family separations may linger for FLDS children
"Those kids will never be the same from when they left - never," said Bonnie Peters, executive director of the Family Support Center...

"Those kids will never be the same from when they left - never," said Bonnie Peters, executive director of the Family Support Center...

"Arizona authorities intent on wiping out polygamy descended on Short Creek... A crucial difference is that mothers and siblings remained together in 1953...

"My little 4-year-old granddaughter there [in Texas] said, 'Mama, they put me in jail...

"CPS official said the state will examine what services may be offered to reunited FLDS families. Counseling is sometimes provided for families when a child returns home after foster care, said Marleigh Meisner..."

Pulling apart families only creates harm

Even FLDS opponets are condemning Texas.

All FLDS children returned to parents

CPS lies 2 thru 26!!!
(Lie 1 = "save Sarah")
" Texas child welfare authorities also officially declared 26 young women — whom they believed to be minors — as legal adults."

CPS lies 27 and 28!
"That leaves five underage girls the state claims are pregnant or who have had children. But attorney Andrea Sloan said the number is actually four. She represents a 14-year-old girl on the list whom she insists is neither pregnant nor married.
"They are finally admitting what we all have known," said Laura Shockley, a Dallas attorney who represented several of the so-called disputed minors. "I think they've made a huge mistake. I think they violated those young women's constitutional rights, and they should prepare themselves for the possibility of attorneys addressing that."

More evidence of lie ONE!
"[Willie] Jessop said Utah and Arizona deputies spoke to Doran the day of the raid about the purported calls. Doran knew those calls were investigated by the deputies and found to be a hoax, Jessop claims.
"The record shows that calls from deputies were made to Sheriff Doran before the raid began," he said. "He's lost a lot of credibility with us, the public and outside agencies. He knows that raid wasn't made in good faith."

kbp said...

I'd like to point something out in my last comment:

CPS lies 27 and 28!
"That leaves five underage girls the state claims are pregnant or who have had children. But attorney Andrea Sloan said the number is actually four. She represents a 14-year-old girl on the list whom she insists is neither pregnant nor married.
"They are finally admitting what we all have known," said Laura Shockley, a Dallas attorney who represented several of the so-called disputed minors. "I think they've made a huge mistake. I think they violated those young women's constitutional rights, and they should prepare themselves for the possibility of attorneys addressing that."

We have FOUR left that MAY produce charges. I believe one of them would be charges against Warren, if such happens.

That means, by my count, there are only THREE possible cases that will involve SEX and CHILD with any of the residents of YFZ Ranch.

The state needs a whole lot more media CYA than they're ever going to get using Sheriff 'village idiot' Doran.

Anonymous said...

Jumping to Conclusions: FLDS & TBM

People in Texas, in the CPS, in the Legislature, in Eldorado County, jumped to conclusions. They could sense, they could tell, they were sure ... that the FLDS was a malfunction they had to do something about, even if the facts weren't exactly cooperative.

Problem is, they didn't have sufficient evidence, and their actions took place outside the provisions of law. Not opinion; High Court determination.

Now Texas is wearing the consequences of their rash, skirt-the-law approach. The media is turning on them. They look foolish, and they have a open-ended series of potential legal problems ahead.

John Lester has brought forward a proposition, a conclusion, an accusation, concerning TxBluesMan. But like Texas' action against the FLDS, he does not have either the evidence or the legal standing to justify his continuing campaign.

John Lester is repeating in miniature, the mistakes that led the State of Texas to an historic social & legal blunder.

Nice response, TxBluesMan 09:20.

Anonymous said...

John Lester 10:21 -

As always, I'm only seeking the truth. And justice.

No, you have gone beyond "only seeking".

You have jumped to conclusions, and are repeatedly stating your unsubstantiated ideas as facts.

That's a different thing from "seeking".

You have crossed over the line - the same line exceeded by CPS and other parties of Texas, and you are treating TxBluesMan the same way that FLDS was treated.

TxBluesMan could be the incarnation of Satan, but you don't have evidence of it, and trying to tar him with something there is no real support for, is just as wrong as it was for Texas to do it to the FLDS.

Anonymous said...

John Lester 10:21 -

"... we showed that TBM about two years ago posted his birthday as January 1, 1965."

No, we showed that someone who used the username TxBluesMan registered that birthday. Our TBM has no lock on that moniker, and we have no way to know if it was him or not.

Earlier, you yourself showed that anyone can use whatever handle they choose. You provided a couple examples, recorded in this thread.

TBM, TxBluesMan, could be a gumshoe, he could be anything. But without evidence, you have no grounds to make statements of fact about what he is or isn't.

It is possible, that just as the State of Texas could be found responsible for unwarranted damages to the FLDS, you could be placing yourself in legal jeopardy, stating as facts your ideas about TxBluesMan that have no evidentiary support.

One can say "I think he is" or "I believe he is" all he wants, but when we state "He is", we are at potential legal liability.

Anonymous said...

G'night all!

blog648 said...

John, I've been reading your posts and the more you go on and on, the more you sound like my mentally ill brother. Whenever he forgets to take his medicine, or just quits taking it, he starts going on these rants and he can go on for hours, just like you've been doing, and there's no talking to him until he gets back on his meds. And he suffers from delusions of granduer where he thinks he has incredible powers of intellect and he's much smarter than I am or anyone else, and he just isn't.

John, you're obsessed with this Bluesman/Doran thing, and if you go back over your posts you'll see what others can see.

If you're supposed to be taking medicine, you need to get back on it right away. If you've been taking it like you should be, you need to get hold of your doctor right away and have him/her adjust the dosage, because you're out of whack.

John, you're obsessive, you're manic, you're delusional, you're paranoid and schitzophrenic. Please, get professional help.

Anonymous said...

Hey, I was wondering.
Awhile back someone commented on Grit's coverage of the Texas Youth Commission scandal . . .
Did this take place while Gov. Perry was in office?

Cause, I was thinking about that while reading these two articles:

June 5th - 3 hours ago
"Texas governor suggests sect may want to move on"
"Texas Gov. Rick Perry defends state's seizure of polygamist sect's kids"

TxBluesMan said...


Not bad.

I would have added histrionic personality disorder to the mix though.

Anonymous said...

WorthNoting 01:08 -

I read these 2 articles about Gov. Perry's attempt to smear the FLDS with accusations the Courts found lacking in evidence - and legal standing.

(However, both your links are truncated/broken by the blog, and I found them only by searching with the title.)

Perry might be at risk of copyright infringement here. I think Bill Clinton used a too-similar logical sleight-of-hand when he said, "I did not have sex with that woman!".

President Bill may have grounds for action against the Governor. ;-)

Anonymous said...

Suspected 'Sarah' will be in court today

"Rosemary's book publisher declined to make her available for interviews without approval from Swinton's criminal defense attorney. Attempts to reach Swinton herself for comment have been unsuccessful."

Does that suggest Rosemary is Swinton and Swinton/Rosemary might exercise her right to remain silent on advise of her criminal defense attorney?

kbp said...


The links are not broken, you just need to downsize the text in your screen to see all of them.

rericson said...

To the extent that I am able, I really do try to stay away from personal attacks, and other personalizations of the issues. Howere', as each of us stays a part of this dialogue with one another for such a protracted period of time, it gets ever more difficult.....

At this point, I feel I almost "know" the bluesman...he is a recognizable character....I sit across from him in meeting after meeting, all of the time....
And I have come to like him, at times...because he is bright, often darkly witty, and he challenges me to think more clearly and abstactly....to remove myself from my reactive, emotionalism, and be clear and rational in my thinking....and he affords each of us, by playing 'devil's advocate' the opportunity to develop our messages and commit them to an open blog, where they may inspire, or provide ideas for those on the ground, doing the nitty-gritty work of representing the FLDS community, the parents, and the children....

And...it is because of this 'personalization' I have engaged in, that I feel compelled to be very personal, and very public in my reaction to the bluesman's most recent post on his blog......
It is hateful and repugnant....it encapsulates, in a few short words, the ugliness and bigoted behaviors and thinking that have so enraged so many of us from such divergent perspectives....
It is nothing short of what one would expect of klansmen and other hate-mongers. It is not what I expect from the bluesman. From him, to date, we have gotten a fairly impersonal "law and order" stance, but not ugly, personal bigotry....
As much as I am disgusted by folks like Sheriff Doran, et al...I expect exactly what I get from them because they are fairly average products of differential association. I expect more and better from the bluesman and I feel persoanlly disappointed and repelled by this ugly attack of his....
I sincerely hope that he posted what he posted merely for the purpose of generating discussion and that he realizes he crossed that invisible, yet very real line......and that he openly pulls his foot back.....

kbp said...

I can't keep up with all of Hugh's investigation of Swinton and those associated with her, not and keep track of the other issues this Texas mess has produced.

Whatever he finds, I doubt there is any conspiracy involving Rozita that is tied directly into the raid masters, such as Long, Doran, CPS...

Something that grabbed my eye when reading parts of Hugh's work was the mention of ties to Vanderbilt University, Nurses and Psychologists, all in the same post!

That university is famous for what many classify as the "hate studies" groups that are the "diversity" in which liberals have planted throughout most universities today. They're famous for teaching all their students that they are "VICTIMS" of one thing or another and society owes them.

Their are so many self-interest agendas that develop out of that crowd it is impossible to tell what all Hugh may run across in his search! I can't wait to see the number of one-person societies, commissions, committees... he'll run into. All claiming to save the world from something!

Anonymous said...

John Lester 10:09 -

Hugh McBryde posted extensively in the comments of Grit's post, Rozita!, a couple posts following this one.

I agree with Rericson that attacking you on the basis of possible 'mental health' issues is a mistake.

Besides, it has been recognized for millennia that certain kinds of 'crazy' folks are more creative, smarter, and tougher to conquer!

Indeed, about the time that political correctness first reared its dubious head (quashing the notion), many psychologists, neurologists, etc, were gathering around the premise that schizophrenia is too prevalent in the population to be an inherited "disease", that instead it should be viewed as an "adaptation" which confers advantages on those who have the trait (along with, 'natch, some costs..).

Rozita Swinton & 'Rosemary', etc, do 'complicate' the investigation of what happened at YFZ, and why, and by/for whom, etc, but I for one view this aspect of the overall drama as by no means necessarily peripheral! Potentially quite the opposite...

Anonymous said...

Okay, I just found this last night.

I'm assuming everyone BUT me has already seen this as it explains where a LOT of the negative comments I've read in various places "got" their "inside info".

Or, maybe it's those books (written by ex-FLDS) being "promoted" (what are the odds for this "coincidental timing")along with the careers of various "talk show hosts" (those founts of dubious sound-bite wisdom - who're more than happy to deep-six ALL our Constitutional Rights - if it'll keep their sensationalist ratings high just a bit longer).

Also, many people talk about how "isolated" and "unequipped" to "handle" outside society that being raised in an FLDS community renders those wishing to "escape" (one "escaped" by merely calling a taxi - which didn't sound like being "held captive" in a "compound" to me).

However, watching these "ex-FLDS" making successful book deals and doing the talk show circuits provides evidence - to me, that - they're not too disadvantaged - as they're actually doing QUITE WELL in "outside society" - if they can pull all this off.

Anyway,just in case someone besides me DIDN'T see this:

The Primer
Helping Victims of Domestic Violence and
Child Abuse in Polygamous Communities

(Sorry about not knowing how to post these links some other way. "HOW" are all you folks doing that anyway?)

Anonymous said...

John Lester 11:37 -

You said, "Isn't it fascinating ... he is absolutely fascinated with weapons used by Hitler's Nazi Germany?"

No, the questions & answers provide in the forum post you quote show no "fascination" with weapons whatsoever.

The question in the forum pertained to a "medal", and a minor, low-level medal at that, similar to a Boy Scout merit-badge (for "markesmanship", meaning one can shoot a weapon 'nominally satisfactorily'). There is no indication of interest in the weapons that were used, whatsoever.

Honestly, John, your last two posts about the medal, and about Walther's connection to Nazis, are rants, pure 'n simple. You are raving, out of control. There is no substance or value in the posts you are writing. This is an abuse of Grit's forum, a waste of all our time, and pure nonsense.

Get a grip, John, and knock it off. Please.

Anonymous said...

WorthNoting 12:08 -

To post clickable links, I use a little 'hand-HTML'.

Type : [left angle-bracket]a href="http://example.com"[right angle-bracket]Hot Example![left angle-bracket]/a[right angle-bracket]

We can't type 'loose' angle-brackets, 'cause they're 'live' code and will cause errors if not done right (and if correct, they do not appear in the msg).

The "a" means "anchor" (link). Must be a space between "a" and "href".

The URL - http://example.com - must be in quotes.

"Hot Example!" is the text that will show in the msg.

The "/a" within left-right angle-brackets ends/closes the link-code.

... So, copy the link you want use onto your clipboard, type in your [left angle-bracket]a href=", then immediately hit Insert, filling in the URL, the second quote, the [right angle-bracket], the text you want to appear, the [left angle-bracket], the /a, and the last [right angle-bracket].

Blogger may also have a built-in way to do links, but I don't see it, don't know it, and my hand-way works! ;-)

Anonymous said...

John Lester 01:08 -

"I appreciate the fan support. ;)"

I am a fan of freedom of speech, the Bill of Rights.

But I think you, John Lester, have gone to shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

I think you are trying to damage people who are innocent (at least, until proven guilty - which you aren't doing).

Do you imagine that we are here to serve as your fan-base? If so, that is baseless imagining. Indeed, it sounds narcissistic.

Your behavior has become a problem, John. The effort to speak up on behalf of the FLDS, and hold the excesses of Texas to account, is being impaired by your activity ... by your ranting & raving & blustering & seeking after attention for yourself.

Your activties have degenerated into a patent abuse of the public forum.

Anonymous said...

(Sidenote:Thank you Ted for the directions which were great!)
I've included the link below and some excerpts from the article there.
Has this ever been discussed in regards to the FLDS Raid?


The article referred to - is beneath the oil rig graphic (scroll down towards bottom of page) - titled:
Meanwhile Back At The Ranch.

excerpt from article:
Heartland Drilling Company Rig #2 prepared to run production casing last week after reaching total depth at 7,104 ft. on the Lonestar Schleicher #1, located 4 miles north of Eldorado on the Ronnie Kerr place.

Meanwhile Back at the Ranch
Now, as word comes that an oil well has been completed on the Ronnie Kerr place, bordering the western edge of the YFZ, it is learned that YFZ officials who purchased the Schleicher County property, failed to buy up the mineral rights to the ranch. With oil topping $60 per barrel and natural gas prices approaching an all-time high, it appears very likely that a drilling rig will soon be sinking a well bore on the YFZ Ranch.

Texas law provides the owners of mineral rights to have access to their property, including the right to drill for oil & gas, even if surface owners don’t agree.

Another excerpt:
It is unknown exactly how soon exploration might begin on the YFZ Ranch, but one thing is for sure, the men and women who live in seclusion on the property aren’t likely to welcome the intrusion of man and machine on land they deem to be holy.

I couldn't find a date for this article though . . .or other info.

It does inspire thought.
Has anyone heard any mention of this?

kbp said...


Some had tossed in a speculation that the plan could be to run the FLDS to get the black gold!

Looks like there is nothing to get from them.

Anonymous said...

Yes, I HAD noticed the "low" price listed for the oil (and today's date in corner.

However, the YFZ Ranch has only been there 4 years (at least that's what I remember being stated in articles)so, it can't be too old.

I was hoping someone had either read more about this somewhere (and could share the links) or . . .

Knew how to "research" this online to validate the info . . .

(the wells on the property next door could have turned out "dry" or whatever . . . I know "zip" about oil - other than oil's a "biggie" - what with the whole "foreign" oil problems.)

Property records are a matter of public record so does anyone know if there would be "public records" concerning this???????????

I'm just "plain old curious" about who DOES own the mineral rights for the YFZ Ranch . . .I've always hated mental "loose-ends".

Figured I'd toss it out there as it's been bothering me for quite a while - one of those buzzing mental questions that keeps popping up - and maybe someone out there would know an easy "here's how you find out" solution or something.

Anyhow, if anyone CAN offer more info on this I'd appreciate it! THANKS!

(and thanks for the response to my post johnlester!)
(and you too kbp - saw your response when I previewed this!)

Anonymous said...

Worth Noting 04:03 -

As a broad, general rule, subsurface mineral rights are typically 'unbundled' from property titles, all over North American & elsewhere.

In many districts, titles hardly ever transfer with mineral rights. In part this reflects historic, now-archaic social & business hopes & fears & fantasies ... now entirely outmoded.

But in places like Texas, the old legal partition reflects important realities, at least, back when the State was still a major oil producer.

However, Texas has been drilled & seisomgraphed and geo-mapped every way there is - decades ago. There is very little about Texas' oil-prospects left to uncover. This was all done back when they were swimming in oil, the stampede was on, and thousands of wildcatters were everywhere 'n anywhere there was a hope or a prayer ... or someone to connive into thinking there might be, with a well-padded bank account.

By far & away the most obvious explanation for the drilling rig that showed up on property next to YFZ a few years ago, is that the neighbor-owner was horrified & disgusted by the FLDS showing up next door, they ruined whatever plans he had for his own property, or he became uninterested in his own by the presence of the "pligs" ... and being a coy ol' Texan (or having access to such) he put up some equipment to make it look like someone was onto to something valuable under the ground ... so that it would be easier to drum up interest in (or at least publicity for) his land.

Oldest trick in the book - "classic Texas".

Anonymous said...

Handbook of Texas Online - Scheicher County

Oil has a much more important history in Schleicher Co than I expected. It could be still important, and if it is now inactive, gestures in the direction of reviving production would stir (warranted) interest.

"One economic plus for Schleicher County proved to be the oil and gas industry.qv Although the first oil and gas leases were probably made in 1918, no significant discovery was made until the late 1920s, and no commercial production took place until 1934. Oilfield discoveries on school lands in the 1950s enabled Schleicher County to build new library and gymnasium facilities for its students. Most of the gas wells discovered in the 1950s and early 1960s were plugged until the gas market improved in the late 1960s. In the 1970s the ad valorem tax collected on oil and gas production paid 60 to 70 percent of the county's public school costs, as well as contributing to road maintenance. Schleicher County oil fields produced approximately one million barrels annually in the 1980s."

So, the oil-angle could be a much bigger consideration than I gave it in my 'classic Texas' comment.

Anonymous said...

WOW! Thanks so much Ted Clayton for both posts - finally something besides that one teasing article!
and johnlester for the statistics websites.

I'm one of those folks who - upon moving into a new area - do a faithful and ongoing study of it's history. It's fascinating to know the past of a place, as well as the social dynamics that have played out over the years. Living stories of real folks.

Often much can be learned this way!

Plus, there's some folksy quote concerning "the details" which has proven useful over the years.

Thanks again!

rericson said...

Oil drilling has always existed in Los Angeles, however, because the 'per barrel' cost of drilling there was so high, it reached a certain threshold of developement and stayed fairly consistent at that level for many years...now, with foreign oil skyrocketing in cost, it has made the Los Angeles drilling far more lucrative....many, many new drill sites today, that were considered cost prohibitive even a few months ago....
And here, in Northeast Pa., there is a scramble going to tap natural gas that was 'cost prohibitive' previously.....
So the Schleicher County drilling may very well be increasing.....
Interesting angle.....
Straight out of a John Grisham novel, 'cept it's real....scary stuff......

Anonymous said...

To: kbp

Walter did go on to require 38 TRLA represented mothers to sign agreeing to her new temporary order before she would vacate her custody order...as she demanded on that Frid. when she walked off the bench.

* * *

''Attorneys for two legal aid firms who successfully petitioned to have the children released arrived at the courthouse at 8:15 a.m. and submitted their own reunification plans for the judge to sign. They worked over the weekend to draft it and gather FLDS mothers' signatures, which Walther said she wanted.''

Walther required her order to be agreed upon before she would vacate.

Hence...Elder Jessop's statement: "We wanted a better deal, but we'll take it."


kbp said...

Walthers demanded signatures Friday for what I'll call Plan C (3rd discussed that day.

TRLA submitted Plan D, with signatures.

Walthers then provided Plan E, which does not require an agreement. It is an Order.

The parents signatures on Plan D, are of no value without Walthers signature to make it an order.

kbp said...


Did you know it went to a new page if you passed 200 comments?

Gritsforbreakfast said...

To John Lester: I have no idea why you're posting most of this stuff, but with respect you need to start your own blog and not post most of it here. Your accusations about Bluesman, Doran and others on here are as shrill and irritating as they are groundless, and they're distracting from more serious discussions. Please limit yourself to three comments per day on Grits, and please try to focus your attention on the case at hand instead of trying to guess the identity of your fellow commenters.

I try to let comments run free for the most part, but one person can ruin it for everybody and your false, shrill, and frequently ridiculous allegations are turning the forum into a joke.

Gritsforbreakfast said...

That's three for today, John. See you tomorrow.

Gritsforbreakfast said...

Do not post complaints about Grits comment policy here. Send them to shenson@austin.rr.com

Anonymous said...

Managing the John Lester Comment-Flood

If you have been watching the comments on GritsForBreakfast' "YFZ kids headed home" post, or if you surfed into this comments-page in pursuit of information about the Texas raid on the FLDS ranch near Eldorado in Schleicher County, you will notice an unusual collection of comments made by one "John Lester".

The glut of Lester's extraneous personal explorations makes following the comment-thread difficult. He does not contribute, but rather interferes. To help manage the problem of Lester's onslaught, use the following method.

Go to the top of the comments-page and find the "Collapse comments" link, just below the post-title. Click it and all posts collapse to one line consisting of just the author-name, as a link.

"johnlester" comments are huge rants. To see the comments of other people, just click on an author-name, which opens that particular comment. You can open several, and they will all stay open, while Lester's entries remain collapsed.

To restore the full comment-thread, return to the top and click the "Show all comments" links.

Anonymous said...

The Salt Lake Tribune's Brooke Adams provides more details about the recent FLDS statement that underaged girls will no longer be married; that FLDS will abide by minimum-age laws wherever they live.

See: Polygamous sect's no-underage-marriage vow: Will it be honored?

Among the new information: that the "clarified" policy has been in effect for 18 months, preceding the raid by more than a year.

And, heavy hints that evidence of Warren Jeffs' behavior contributed to the move to change the sect's policies - well before Texas intervened.

I get the sense that Brooke Adams may be playing a bit of the devil's advocate in this piece ... and that it may be the prelude to further new information.

blog648 said...

Brooke Adams is the Trib's "polygamy beat" reporter, and she's been on the case for nearly a decade. Some accuse her of being a polygamist sympathizer, but I think it stems from the fact that she knows more about this subject than any other reporter in America. Consequently, she's not nearly as shrill or hysterical as many others in the media. I suppose if you view people as human beings that could cloud your judgment.

Gritsforbreakfast said...

Note to John Lester: Come back tomorrow. You've had your three for the day.

Pinkycatcher said...

John Lester, you go from someone calling "The Civil War" "The War of Northern Aggression" to calling them Nazis? I call it the "War of Northern Aggression" or at least "The War Between the States" I know many people that do. It's all based on the general southern point of view, not on bigotry and hatred. You classifying TBM, and in effect everyone who says "The War of Northern Aggression" is bigoted and hateful, but I digress.

Grits, is there anything in the news recently? I can find very few articles, even Brooke Adams blog has lulled for nearly a week. Also do you think the evidence should/will be thrown out because of the search warrant?

Does any legal person think that the defense can say that law enforcement didn't act on good faith?

Anonymous said...

I don't agree with Grits and others who support this kind of government propaganda but read the comments. Funny, scary and food for thought all at once.

The First Amendment and public trials was meant as a government watchdog, not a government mouthpiece.

Anonymous said...

Fred 01:34 -

I agree that the article you link to contains information about propaganda, but it seems to me the intent of the article is to expose a propaganda-program of the government.

I don't think Grits supports smearing the FLDS under the banner of the First Amendment.

That this intelligence-gathering activity of the government is being brought to light is a good thing. It shows that they hoped to defame members of the FLDS with what is mostly raw "hearsay" and baseless speculation.

This article makes the government look bad, and I suspect that was the aim of the authors.