In court at the mass 14-day hearing, the Department of Family and Protective Services claimed five girls between 16 and 19 were either pregnant or had kids. Later reports whittled that number down even further.
So how did we get so rapid an increase of 26 girls who're pregnant or have kids? DFPS spokesman Patrick Crimmins told the Deseret News: "Of those 53, Crimmins said 26 claim to be 18 or older. "But we don't think they are," he said."
Aaaah ... that explains it. I'd bet dollars to donuts every one of those 26 are pregnant or has a kid, since that would make DFPS' numbers add up. From the beginning, the agency seems to take these girls' word when it benefits their case, and label them liars when it suits them. That's probably a sound media strategy, but at the end of the day, in front of a judge, they shouldn't get to have it both ways.
If all of the additional "girls" they're now counting actually told DFPS they're 18 or older, and the agency has no documentary proof besides their suspicions that the women are lying, that puts a little different spin on it than most of the headlines today. Since DFPS has already said it disbelieves birth certificates and other documents found on the ranch, I wonder on what they're basing this belief that the alleged crime victims are liars?
What's more, if the girls and their families say they're 18, on what basis I wonder can DFPS force them into foster care?
This case just gets stranger and stranger. There's still no complaining victim. The allegations spawning the raid were a hoax. The agency can't figure out how many kids its seized from day to day. And none of the crime victims agree with the state's allegations, which differ wildly in the media from what DFPS said in court. Just bizarre.
MORE: From the Salt Lake City Tribune, and from Eugene Volokh. The Tribune reports that FLDS spokesman Rod Parker:
contends that the state's new count includes 17 adult women who are being classified as minors. "Beyond that I am unable to verify the information because the Texas Rangers took all the records that might be useful in responding to this," Parker said.RELATED ELDORADO NEWS:
- FLDS disputes number of pregnant teens, threatens lawsuit
- AP: Sweep of polygamist kids raises legal questions
- Hildebran: This won't be 'another Short Creek' (ed note: too late)
- FLDS kids need "to be placed in homes where they'll be taught the gospel of Jesus Christ" (this sentiment seems problematic)
- Rick Casey: Equal justice for prophets and priests
- Spoils of War: Big Hate - Big Brother
- Ben Stein: What did FLDS kids do to deserve this?
143 comments:
Part of the problem in determining how many underage girls have had children is because the girls and the mothers that were taken from the sect have lied. Initially, there were girls saying they were 18 when in fact they are not. They lied because they knew that what has been happening at the compound was illegal. The "mothers" in the group threatend the children not to talk to the workers there. They would not even allow the children to say anything. That is the exact reason it is unsafe for the mothers to be with the children. I think now that DNA is being collected, they DFPS will have the evidence to support their claim that older men were having sexual intercourse with the girls. DFPS is not lying here, but its just that the evidence is only now surfacing and the truth is coming out. That is what happens when children are removed from the abusing families. They end up talking in ways the couldnt do before. Maybe now they feel safe to tell what is really going on. I had been told that the older mothers in the group alleged that certain infants and toddlers belonged to them, not the teenagers there. However, it was obvious to some that they didnt belong to the older women,but the teenagers. Yes, a lot of confusion here...but not because DFPS are not telling the truth, but rather the childen and women taken are not being truthful, for obvious reasons.
It has also been determined that the children now in foster care suffer from numerous disabilities, resulting from incestuous relationships within the compound.
Perhaps you're right, but it's wrong and disingenuous for DFPS to get cheap, inflammatory headlines when their info is iffy and hasn't been confirmed - certainly not for these 26, who are in a he-said, she-said situation.
Looking down the road, how can DFPS prove a case in court when they're calling all the victims liars? For that matter, in how many cases does the state pro-actively go to the media to discredit crime victims? This is a bizarre situation, but touting unsubstantiated statistics to the press based on guesses doesn't help.
Also, how will DNA tell the ages of the mothers? I don't think that will resolve the problem at all if they can't accurately assess ages and are claiming birth records are falsified.
Initially, there were girls saying they were 18 when in fact they are not. They lied because they knew that what has been happening at the compound was illegal.
While it's certainly possible under-18 girls lied as you say, I think it's also quite possible, and probably probable, that some over-18 girls are now lying about being under 18 so that they can stay with their children. This was the option the State gave them, after all, and I don't think it's entirely coincidental that a number of girls who changed their story about their age immediately after it became apparent that this was the only way they could stay with their children.
stephen
I dont know, I think its all such a big mess. I dont know if the families have falsified records. I am guessing that they just havent provided any records. DNA may not prove ages of the "child mothers" but might shed some light on who they belong to and who the children belong to, especially in the cases where the young girls are denying having children and the older women are lying and saying that certain toddlers and babies belong to them instead. Its just my opinion that the DNA evidence will show some inbreeding here as well as coverup from the women in the group. Further, if it is in fact DFPS that are contributing to false headlines in the news, they are making themselves look unreliable. However, the media often come up with their own headlines for sensationalism and do not always reflect what has been actually reported to them.
Would the minors who are "married" even have parents on the ranch? There might not be anyone claiming them at all as their children.
I look forward to hearing about any such cases.
I think it prudent to keep in mind that Mr. Azar and the other CPS people giving out numbers to the media are press flacks. They are not doing the counting themselves; they are telling the press what their supervisors have told them to tell the press. The supervisors are not even doing the counting; they are relying on other people all over the state to accurately report the numbers and the "appearances" of the mothers vis a vis the ages of the mothers. It is a system bound to produce error.
The press flacks are the CPS equivalent of designated liars, in my opinion. Even under the best of circumstances, the information they provide should not be taken as anything more than estimates, and probably should be taken as CPS self-bolstering.
It is infuriating that each new set of numbers is offered as accurate, and that the media apparently is not questioning the press flacks about the previous "accurate" numbers.
You are exactly right. Some of the girls may be lying in order to stay with their children. That seems probable. Maybe that was the option the state gave them after they were removed from the compound, but unless there was something illegal going on to begin with, why not tell the truth? The biggest issue allowing the mothers to stay with the children was that they didnt allow the children to talk to DFPS. In any other instance of a child removal from the home, the non-abusing/neglecting parent is given the option of leaving the home with the child. If the parent refused or went back to the abusing parent before the investigation was over, the child is removed from that parent. The mothers here were given more of an option than most when allowed to leave with the children. I believe that once DFPS realized that the mother was protecting the alleged abuser, not the child, are also being considered non-protectors in the home, therefore also responsible, they could not continue with the arrangement. I am not saying that I believe all allegations, but let's say that it is true that the mothers of these young teenagers allow them to go into spiritual marriages with older men, which includes the girl having sexual intercourse in the temple bed and having children at the age of 15-16. That is no different than a women who knows that her next door neighbor is a sexual predator but allows her daughter to go visit and spend the night with him. She would be just as responsible if something were to happen as the perp would.
CPS is also relying heavily on that gloriously scientific exam known as the eyeball test:
We're getting a clearer picture of how CPS is determining the ages of these young women (emphasis added):
"Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar said 31 of 53 girls ages 14 to 17 have children, are pregnant or both.
"This includes that group of girls that once claimed they were 18 or older," he said. "It was determined they were not adults."
He said some women acknowledged being younger and the age of others was determined by their attorneys or by looking at the women.
"I have seen them myself," he said, "and I don't see any that look like an adult to me."
Three of my daughters are 25, 23, and 19. I could *easily* get all three of them into any museum, amusement park or theater as minors, and, depending on how she's dressed, the 23 year old looks like '12 or under'. I know this, because it is a constant source of temptation to me when we go to such places because without asking any of us how old we are, the ticket sellers always assume they are minors.
The real question in my mind is:
How long will it take for CPS to get it right and return all these children and mothers to their home?
At this point the likelihood of any prosecution is very thin so there is no criminal abuse. Can CPS continue to claim abuse in the absence of any evidence?
Will our rights under the constitution to unreasonable search and seizure and regligious freedom be strengthened or weakened by this mess?
I sincerely hope the media continues to report every event and keep the citizens of this country aware of what is happening in the land of the "free".
It is going to take months and months for the numbers to be accurate. At this point, who knows what to believe. However, some cooperation from the compound might shed some light on the truth, but assure you, that's not gonna happen.
There will never be charges filed on these people because they are hiding under religion. However, criminal charges or not , many of these children will never go home.
"THE GREATEST SHOW ON EARTH"
What a circus! I just keep waiting for the next act.
I think the Texas authorities have got themselves into a situation from which there is no escape.
"Some of the girls may be lying in order to stay with their children. That seems probable. Maybe that was the option the state gave them after they were removed from the compound, but unless there was something illegal going on to begin with, why not tell the truth?"
How do you know they didn't? CPS acknowledges that most of these young women initially said they were adults- and CPS refused to believe them. IF they really are over 18 and CPS didn't believe them, why not tell CPS what it wants to hear so you can stay with your children?
I doubt any of the family will willingly tell who the fathers are of the children. The "single" mothers have milked the state for welfare and there is no telling what would be owed to the state. The Attorney General routinely goes after dead beat dads when the "normal" single mother applies for aid and that is exactly what should happen here. There is no reason that the state should be supporting what is obviously illegal. If any convictions are ever made, it won't be because of abuse of children, but likely some sort of income tax/medicaid/food stamp fraud. What idiot would have dozens of children and expect the state to support them?
So these CPS workers have this mysterious ability to distinguish between the ages of 17 and 18 based on looks alone? Amazing! I'm sure they all have promising futures as bar bouncers.
CPS keeps claiming that the women and children provided contradictory information, but the lawyers for the women and children don't seem to be suffering from the same confusion re ages and who belongs to who. In fact, weren't a number of habeus corpus petitions filed (30+)?
Because a lot of the girls didnt acknowledge that their own children belonged to them. Instead, they told that the children belonged to the older women who left the compound. They didnt acknowledge the children as their own. It was not until they were making the ones without young children leave that they came forward. Thats how I know.
Of course the girls initially said they were of age. They were scared that their children would be taken away if their real age was known and also feared for the men if it was found that they were underage. That is why they wouldnt reveal that their own children were theirs. It was not until the state was not allowing them to remain with the children that their stories changed.
How many children are uder the age of 4? That is where to start. Are there 31 or more? Calling them liars in normal circumstances would be blaming the victim. Now there are allegations of disabilities due to inbreeding. What percentage compared to the overall population? Also, if there is a possibility of charges against the mothers for welfare fraud, what about the right to remain silent? Also, does Texas have a law about parent being present during questioning?
Let's hope these interviews were taped.
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080427/NEWS03/804270658
Here's what FLDS says about welfare:
Q: Does anyone at the Ranch receive any Welfare assistance from any State or Federal government agency?
A: There are a few handicapped and retired elderly people that are receiving Social Security Income. This is the only government assistance received by anyone at the Ranch.
And anonymous, if they were lying about their ages when they said they were over 18, how do you know they aren't lying now? The judge ruled that CPS didn't have to accept birth certificates, driver's licenses, even tax returns as proof of age. So CPS is relying entirely on their ability to guess based on appearance and self reports of the young women- and you and CPS both claim they are liars.
It looks like you and CPS (perhaps one and the same) only believe them when they say what you want to hear.
This continuous coverage by Grits regarding this situation is just classic. Some of you fools are going to claming government interference and requesting these kids get sent back when the state convicts dozens of men of sexual molestation.
I eagerly await zookeeper, Grits, and doran to tear me to shreds claiming how ignorant I am of the situation.
This is the beginning of a multitude of "press releases" regarding this. CPS in Austin is determined to handle this in a very specific manner.
Maybe that was the option the state gave them after they were removed from the compound, but unless there was something illegal going on to begin with, why not tell the truth?
Why not just tell the truth?
Just venturing a guess here, but perhaps the mormon fundies lied to the State because the State had just kidnapped unabused children from non-abusive parents. Maybe from their perspective, trusting someone who had just taken your healthy, loved and wholly unabused children on the grounds of child abuse just didn't seem like a terribly prudent thing to do.
stephen
I don't think you're ignorant of the situation, Jeff. When you write "CPS in Austin is determined to handle this in a very specific manner," I think you're exactly correct. I would have only added, "regardless of the facts in the case of any specific child."
Funny, though, Jeff, how there's not a single arrest yet and you've jumped ahead to "dozens" of convictions. Let's wait to see if ANYONE is charged, which seems unlikely with no witnesses and a bad warrant. As the saying goes, there's many a slip between the cup and the lip.
I've been damn curious how they're going to determine the age of some of these kids.
My honest impression is that even the best forensic analyst can only estimate age to within a year or two. So, I'd think trying to tell the 16 year old from the 18 year old would be difficult without some birth type records.
FYI - this abstract says they can usually come to within plus/minus 12 months.
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1344622302001347
Sorry for multiple posts:
Impossibility of science giving accurate age assessment
You may underestimate CPS's interviewing techniques, Grits. For all we know Warren Jeffs turned state's evidence to boot, or maybe they have a jailhouse snitch in Jeffs' cell. Or maybe some of the mother's are willing to turn state's evidence to keep their children and escape charges against them.
None of that would trump due process arguments though. Even serial killers have due process rights.
Not at all, Ron, thanks for the info.
I agree those who've argued "DNA will tell the tale" overstate the case. The girls' testimony about their age, and their families, creates a presumption the state must rebut, which is easier to do in a press release than in court. They don't win these cases without witnesses or documents.
Grits -
The state has predetermined to treat every single child the same way in terms of press releases until the Judge order which children are at risk enough to warrent a permanent removal (as you've documented, those court appearence start June 5th). Once the judge sends some back, the state will begin treating each case differently unless its a case where one man perped multiple kids.
The state isn't stupid; they know they need convictions out of this to appease the people that think this was simply a case of government interference run amok.
FYI - don't be shocked if girls start heading back before the boys. The boys made this case; the girls haven't talked for whatever reason; its been the boys detailing what rewards the "men" receieve that broke this case.
Jeff, why shouldn't the kids "get sent back" if dozens of men are convicted? Those guys will either be in prison or on probation, and in either case will be prohibited from having any contact with the victims. The YFZ Ranch will be free of their influence, so there will be no good reason for the mothers and their children not to be reunited there. Sounds like a winner to me.
Jeff, with your sub rosa contacts inside CPS, can you tell us when the big raids on the practitioners of ritual male genital mutilation will take place, and which synagoges are going to get hit first? Or, maybe the raids on Catholic churches looking for evidence of child abuse?
In CPS cases, no, the parent does not have the right to be present during questioning. This was not a criminal interview. Silent? What are you talking about? Silent when their daughters were being raped? Yea, I guess they were. When these women applied for services, they signed paperwork indicating that what they were telling was true. To meet the requirements of benefits, no father should be living in the home and very little income. That is not what I have seen . These women and children were living in mansions compared to most HR client.
The FLDS families sure didnt mind the state being involved when the state was paying for their food and housing. They wanted state help, they have it now. Can't pick and choose.
Anonymous, where do you get your info about FLDS people getting welfare, food stamps, etc.?
Same place you got your info on everything is going on.
The only information I've seen on welfare for people at the ranch was already quoted in this string, "There are a few handicapped and retired elderly people that are receiving Social Security Income. This is the only government assistance received by anyone at the Ranch."
To my knowledge, the state of Texas has not alleged welfare fraud in either public statements or in court.
01:30:00, that's why CPS can't be trusted. You knew damn good and well I was talking about the right to be silent regarding welfare fraud, but you perverted that and went straight into the accusations, proving they had a right to be silent and a right to an attorney during questioning!
BTW, it is unlikely the boys witnessed any actual sexual intercourse.
when the state convicts dozens of men of sexual molestation
I, for one, will cheer. As a survivor of sexual abuse as a child, I am all in favor of abusers, after proper respect of the same rights we all have for due process, being charged, tried, and convicted. If or when that happens, there is nothing I have said that will need to be taken back, since I have been in favor of doing just that from the first comment I have made about FLDS until now.
That won't change the fact that CPS, by their own admission, is holding people against their will based entirely on a guess about their ages made using the utterly scientific and infallible 'eyeball test.' That's just one of several inexcusable, unjustifiable abuses of power perpetrated by CPS, law enforcement, and judge Walthiers, and the ends does not justify the means.
Anonymous 1:39, you are either lying to us, or you have broken the law, or both. The information you claim to have seen is not available to the public. If you are not the public, but a state or local employee with access to that info, you have probably violated regulations concerning its release and use.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you. You have the right to consult with an attorney; an attorney will be appointed for you if you cannot afford to hire your own. You have the right.......
It has been alleged, publicly, that the FLDS is one of the biggest abusers of the state welfare system. It is easy to find information regarding the allegations on the internet. It has widely been discussed throughout the media. Charges have not been filed yet but it doesnt mean that they wont be in the future. Right now, the state if focusing on the children, but they will get to that. I would like to know what inside information anyone has about monies the sect has coming in--do we have an inside source? If not, I wouldnt make the assumption that what the members have reported is true.
I have access to the exact same information that you do. All of the information reported here has come from media sources. Take a look...google it. There are numerous websites providing information regarding the allegation of fraud by the FLDS. No lie.
Zookeeper -
How is holding a child under the age of 18 against the law if abuse is suspect? That doesn't make sense. They "eyeball" test won't hold up in court, they wouldn't be so stupid as to try it.
That said, when a girl that looks 14/15 says she's 19 with an older male present, then refuses to talk without a male member of the church present, you use your "eyeball" test until you can confirm the age of the "supposed" child.
Also, I don't know if any male children witnessed any sexual intercourse. It was more along the lines (so I've been told), of "hey, we get to do this when we grow up!" type thing.
Christ, Doran Willimas if a complete and total tool.
Yeah, you and the CPS "expert" rely on the same media to draw conclusions which you then present as truth. Lord. Save. Us.
No, the right to remain silent regarding welfare fraud doesnt make sense. They don't have the right to be silent and undermine the state by not being honest in answering questions regarding their household, income, etc...if they didnt want to reveal the truth, they should not have gone for state handouts.
I don't know if any male children witnessed any sexual intercourse. It was more along the lines (so I've been told), of "hey, we get to do this when we grow up!" type thing.
Wow, 15-17 year old boys are excited about the prospect of having sex at some point in the future.
If that isn't evidence of wrong doing then I don't know what is.
Stephen
Who knows what all these kids have seen. For all we know, they have witnessed their sisters be raped. Everyone is judging here based on what they have "heard" from sources. Again, unless there is someone here who has first hand information, all is speculation.
Jeff, see the 11:38 comment and follow the link. CPS claims that they know the girls are underage because they looked at them and they don't look over 18. That's not good enough.
As for Welfare Fraud, I have read such accusations by authorities about the communities in Arizona- NEVER in Texas- except by people like anonymous who don't offer any evidence.
The Texas community may be abusing the system. I don't know. They say they aren't even using it, except for the handicapped and the elderly. That's all I can find about the Texas community. IF somebody can present some sort of evidence that the Texas community is guilty of Welfare Fraud, I'd be interested in seeing it.
But if they are using Welfare, then CPS is lying when it says they have documents proving their age. You can't be on Welfare without such documentation, so both allegations cannot be true.
Er- I meant if they are on Welfare, then CPS is lying when it says they have no documents because you can't be on Welfare without proof of i.d.
The welfare fraud thing-----is silly given that via CPS, the State of Texas is providing for 100% of the support of all the folks in custody.
Cry about the abuse of these folks rights, if you need to cry!
Who knows what all these kids have seen. For all we know, they have witnessed their sisters be raped. Everyone is judging here based on what they have "heard" from sources. Again, unless there is someone here who has first hand information, all is speculation.,
That there are no arrests so far is not speculation. And trial by media is half the problem; the other half is due process violations.
The NY Times reported this press release in a squib in the National Breifing section:
Texas: Officials Find Mothers Among Girls in Custody
State child welfare officials say that 31 of the 53 girls ages 14 to 17 swept into state custody from a polygamist group's ranch already have children or are pregnant. State officials stook custody of all 463 children at the ranch in Eldorado after an April 3 raid prompted by a girl's call to a domestic violence hot line.
That's it. The squib is not indexed or available at the web site. In comparison, the Ft Worth Star Telegram has a breathlessly credulous headline article featuring the story.
I think that Texas Child Protective Services has little credibility with the NY Times, thus its scanty treatment. The Ft Worth Star Telegram stopped reporting several years ago after McClatchy bought it, and now publishes press releases instead.
If they lied about who they were living with and where the fathers were, then whose to say they didnt lie on their applications? Yes, the state may be providing for 100% of the children now, but thats better than supporting adult women and men who are abusing the system. You can say its silly, but if you are okay with your hard earned tax dollars supporting the sect, then go to the FLDS website and dontate.
BTW, thanks for the analysis on the "statistics." There is something suspicious about them - they are too vague to support the conclusion - but I didn't know what, except by this time I don't believe anything DPS says.
As for anonymous asserting that the girls and mothers lied about their age, he/she is ignoring the probability that some of them genuinely believed they were adults and were not aware that one must be 18 in Texas to be an adult.
Zookeeper -
Its enough to warrant initial removal, which again is all we are at right now.
As to John, that's a dumb thing to write. HOW OLD ARE YOU? does not translate into HOW OLD DO YOU BELIEVE YOU NEED TO BE IN ORDER TO BEAR CHILDREN IN THE STATE OF TEXAS? Two totally different things
It has also been determined that the children now in foster care suffer from numerous disabilities, resulting from incestuous relationships within the compound.
Bullshit. Disabilities take generations to manifest, if then. Incest is a huge social more, and downright disgusting, but it won't crank out disabled babies in one generation.
I hope you don't work for the state.
So I'm going to troll the local high school and pick up some dates. When prosecuted, I'll just say "she looked 18 to me," and surely that will be as good for the gander as it was for the goose.
No?
anonymous said, "All of the information reported here has come from media sources. Take a look...google it. There are numerous websites providing information regarding the allegation of fraud by the FLDS."
Well there you go! It's in the media and on the internet. That must make it true :-)
Regarding whether or not FLDS members rely heavily on assistance from Welfare or Foodstamps- I don't, in fact, depend upon their assertion as being true or false.
Unlike anonymous, who insists he/she knows this is what they do, I remain neutral on that issue, and have typed repeatedly that I am sure there is some abuse going on in some families that should be remedied- legally- and that I do not like or agree with FLDS theology and much of its practices.
These are the only facts I know about the Welfare Fraud allegations:
Nobody, other than anonymous commenters on the internet, has accused the members of the *Texas* group of Welfare fraud anywhere that I can find. I don't think it's reasonable to hold them guilty for what some members of the Arizona and Colorado communities do. I can find that CPS is pretty free with other allegations, as is law enforcement ('dozens' of underaged mothers; the titillating stories of sex beds in the temple; that these people lie all the time; that they don't have I.D.; that they aren't allowed to play with toys or don't know how to use crayons; 50 year old men with 13 year olds, and Angie Voss even accused them of encouraging 'old men' to have sex with 'little girls'- her words, when they have no such evidence and I think it's emotionally inflammatory, intellectually dishonest, and manipulative to call teenagers 'little girls,'while testifying under oath, so I don't see why, if they had evidence of Welfare Fraud they wouldn't have mentioned it.
CPS insists that they don't have any documents, or that those they have 'might' be forged. This is, like it or not, inconsistent with the anonymous claims that they are defrauding Welfare. CPS presented NO evidence that their documents were forged, they merely asserted that they *might* be. So might yours. I think the state should have more evidence before treating me or you or FLDS as forgers in possession of stolen or falsified identification.
FLDS might well be lying when they state, categorically, that the only members of the ranch using Welfare or food stamps are the disabled and the elderly. But you see, they are making substantive, verifiable statements of fact, and CPS isn't. And if they were, in fact, using Food Stamps, people in town would know it. Where do they shop? The cashiers and managers at those stores know very well which of their customers are on food stamps. They could come forward and call FLDS out on that lie= if it is a lie.
Another possibility is that the Texas community has looked at the things that caused members of the other two communities problems and has been trying to avoid them, so they are not actually on Welfare or food stamps.
Right *now* it looks to me like they have more credibility than CPS or anonymous commenters on this issue.
So, I ask again, if you know for a fact that the members of the Texas community are committing Welfare Fraud- or even simply using it, where do you get your information and can you share the source?
I actually would like to know the truth.
Actually, Jeff, that's the problem. We're past initial removal. We're past the 14 day hearings. And CPS is still treating the kids like a herd of cattle, not differentiating by individual circumstance as the law requires. Since you apparently work for them, given your claimed inside knowledge of investigations, you must know that's completely contrary to the law and usual practice, as is constantly playing the media, tossing out one fabricated number after another they can't confirm.
And if you're right the girls will go home first, how bizarre is that? The boys aren't under any threat of abuse that I've heard of, the allegation is they're being "groomed" to be abusers decades from now.
I agree with the Headmistress - I'd cheer if they got actual convictions, but I don't see it happening. All I think CPS will get is egg on their face, and in the meantime they've created a huge mess.
If the growth plate on the wrist is calcified, then the person is most likely over the age of 18. That doesn't help much in proving that a person is under 16.
Jeff takes me to task:
As to John, that's a dumb thing to write. HOW OLD ARE YOU? does not translate into HOW OLD DO YOU BELIEVE YOU NEED TO BE IN ORDER TO BEAR CHILDREN IN THE STATE OF TEXAS? Two totally different things
Well, you may be right, but it depends on what the women were asked. If something like "Children on this side, adults on that side" there would be confusion. I was on my own at 16, and if I were asked at 17 if I were an adult, I would have said yes, regardless of state law, which I wouldn't have known anyway. I certainly didn't think of myself as a child. No, it wasn't Texas, and my independence wasn't religion.
So, what were the FLDS members asked? "How old are you?" or "Adult or child?"
Somebody else here asserts that the CPS used the "eyeball" method to determine adult or child.
Look, this raid just wasn't well considered. I don't mean to make a whipping boy of CPS - I agree with the Local Crank that CPS simply doesn't have the clout to be the heavy, although you are sure going to get blamed for this mess. We are left to guess what went on in the raid and roundup, what was asked and said, and the confusions aren't helped by dubious press releases. You can't tout the children as liars one moment and victims to be protected the next without raising a few eyebrows.
Questions: Does anyone know if birth certificates are required by law, and if the failure of a parent to obtain one is prosecutable under Texas law.
Up until sometime after the War for Southern Independence only slaves had births registered so as to preserve pedigrees for the slave owners.
It makes one wonder just why would the state (government) require a birth certificate and a social security? number for infants???
What a string of comments I missed being a part of today!
Al should remember;
When you stand up for the rights of those that may be guilty, we'll know you believe in those rights.
When you take rights away from any suspects, you'll also take them away from the innocent.
Well all those families will be getting welfare now. If the foster parents are smart, the kids under 5 will go on WIC ASAP. It doesn't go away until thet're 5 even if they are returned or go on to a new home. The women will probably get it every time they're pregnant now.
DFS/CPS not accepting birth certificates is just ridiculous. Those are state issued certificates in most places and the courts are supposed to accept government employees' word as expert witness. And social security cards (numbers) are now required to claim children as deductions on federal income tax. I had an electronically filed return rejected for not having a correct one for an adopted child (it was his old one and the name didn't match).
I'd think the ladies would change their minds at the last minute to agree with CPS so they could be with their children, even if they had to say they were 17 when they're 25. They aren't lying under oath - but CPS sure looks like they may have been - read the original avidavit for removal - I don't think they tried any methods to eliminate the circumstances, but rather decided to take all the children anyway. That ought to be perjury when you say you did something that really you never did.
OOPS!
"All should..."
An FLDS female whose age is in dispute was in labor in a San Marcos hospital Tuesday, accompanied by Texas Rangers and CPS workers, an attorney said.
Attorney Rod Parker, an FLDS spokesman, said Pamela Jeffs is 18 - the same age shown for her on a court document prepared by Texas Child Protective Services.
Jeffs is one of 26 females CPS has now classified as minors, an assessment that the FLDS said Monday was erroneous.
"Her husband is 22 and they are a monogamous couple," Parker said. He said Jeffs' husband is not at the hospital with her.
The couple also have a 16-month-old son, who is being held at The Children's Shelter in Austin...
I abhor what CPS has done and is doing, but I do also believe that it is legal and constitutional. These laws and practices have been in effect for nearly a decade now, and CPS is very well versed in how to proceed with their "prosecution". Since the Mondale act of 1974, States have been modifying their statutes to conform in order to gain federal monies. In 1998 President Clinton ordered an escalation of this process, and gave additional financial incentives to states (and CPS) to expedite the process. The goals (as they were pitched at the time) were to streamline the legal process by making it very similar in every state, seek permanency for children in foster care in less than two years, and reward the state with funds if they could adopt out twice as many children each year as the year before. Failure to do these things meant forfeiting federal dollars. It seemed that by accomplishing these things, soon there would be no children left in foster care, and thus no need for large CPS departments. The overall savings would pay for itself in short order. Clinton didn't foresee that these incentives would be later used to justify jobs, and children pulled into foster care for the sake of meeting quotas, but that is effectively what happened (not that this is CPS's express motivation here).
Since 2000, these tactics have been employed by CPS in every state. Early on, the majority of the cases were justifiable because abuse did exist. By 2002, CPS found they needed to double the number of kids in foster care in order to double the number freed for adoption in order to continue funding. At this time, they began assaults on children "less abused", but where it might be prudent to "prevent abuse". As those numbers dwindled, they sought to go after those where abuse was likely, but not evident. As the legitimate abuses became less and less, the standards of proof were lowered. These standards were already set low by law, but judges began to require less and less evidence (as allowed by the existing standards). As such, simply claiming abuse may have occurred, and that potential abuse might occur at some undefined point in the future has become the normal tactic CPS relies upon. They still need an allegation of abuse in order to set the wheels in motion, but that allegation can be anon or even knowingly false, provided the CPS investigator thinks or suspects (a purely subjective standard) that some form of abuse exists or might potentially exist.
Once the children are legally in state custody, the families are herded down the chute to the branding station at the end. It is a one way trip that precious few escape. Parents are expected to moo softly and move along. Children are taught that their parents were unfit to care for them and that they were abused. While infants are typically easy to adopt out, the prime meal that feeds the States CPS engine are the 5-14 year olds. They are more difficult to adopt out, and the state rakes in federal dollars to maintain them in foster care. Once a child hits 18, they're dropped in the streets. Those whom are 14-17 at the time of initial custody are most often placed in group settings originally slated for troubled teens. For many of these teens, this is their first encounter with unsavory peers, and they learn fast how to fit into that group. For the lucky few that are "freed for adoption" (through involuntary termination of parental rights), once they reach 18, they return to their families to learn they no longer have any legal standing in the family or inheritance issues. New laws are being proposed today to address this issue by allowing children to reverse the termination of parental rights just before they age out of the system so they can have legal standing again. In the bulk of cases, once a child ages out, they return to their birth family anyway.
As I see it, the source of these problems is the lower standards set into law. A vast majority of these cases would cease to exist if a criminal standard was required to remove a child from their parents. Such a standard would also help reduce the number of actual abuse cases needing to be addressed. I would propose that the lower standard be kept in place in order to cause a family to utilize those services that CPS (often claims to have offered but never did) has at their disposal in the form of prevention. But to physically remove a child from a family, the criminal threshold must be crossed.
CPS has proven to be very bold in this particular case, as they have often stayed away from taking on anyone with enough money, power, or ability to draw mass media attention to how this system actually works. The vast majority of these cases are sealed so no one can see what goes on behind closed courtroom doors, and parents who do manage to complain to media are simply discounted as disgruntled child abusers who want to complain about how unfairly they were treated for abusing their children. This case has managed to remain unsealed for the moment, exposing what CPS has been doing in smaller instances all over the country for several years. CPS has many years of court cases to support their way of doing things, so legally they're "safe". This is however one of the few instances where the court of public opinion needs to be persuaded, else their entire house of cards could fall down at the next legislative session. Regardless, as far as these children are concerned, their families are destroyed. Some "may" be reunited with a parent, but only if that parent repents and corrects the errors of their ways, which would require the destruction of the family unit as these people know it to be.
Anon,
You make some good points, many i feel are not applicable in this case.
A problem i see is at the beginning where you start off stating "...but I do also believe that it is legal and constitutional."
You completely miss the procedures the CPS must adhere to and the individuals rights they and the court ignored by not following procedure.
You completely miss the procedures the CPS must adhere to and the individuals rights they and the court ignored by not following procedure.
I didn't expound upon those, you are right, but according to how juvenile statutes are written, all stantards have been met.
The law sets the standard for initiating an investigation as having a complaint. One exists.
The law sets the standard for taking a child into custody as having an affidavit claiming abuse exists or immediate danger of abuse exists. Such an affidavit was filed. Such an order for removeal of the children was granted.
The law requires that a continued custody hearing be held within a specific time period. One was. It further states that the evidentiary standard be "perponderance of the evidence" (which basically means a 50/50 chance the accusations could be true). Law further states that if a mandated protector recommends that a child be placed back into the potential abusive environment and abuse does occur as a result, that protector can be held criminally liable. Hence, CPS workers avoid the risk by never making the recommendation. Judges avoid the risk by granting continued custody. Keep in mind the continued custody hearing is not an evidentiary hearing, and hearsay is permissable. In this case, as in the case of many others, continued custody was granted by a court of law.
The next phase will be adjudication, and the standard there is set higher, but the burden to prove is that the child is "in need of care". With few exceptions, all children need care in some form or another, so this is an easy win for CPS.
After adjudication comes disposition, where CPS outlines the plan to reunify the child with the parent (and evidentiary standards are reverted to Perponderance of the evidence again). Even though during the preceeding phases, no actual evidence of abuse or immediate danger was presented, the plan for reunification will set forth as a goal a full admission of such abuse or threat by the parent. Other goals will also be put into place to destroy the environment from which the children came and replace it with an environment CPS desires. Many parents fail to achieve these goals.
After disposition, review hearings continue about once every six months. The parents progress with the plan is monitored. If after the child has been in custody for 18 of the past 24 months, CPS seeks termination of parental rights (to comply with the "freed for adoption" standards set forth by the feds). If a parent does manage to complete the plan in time, CPS has the ability to say the parent only went through the motions and disn't learn anything, and thus seek termination. The third prong which could cause the termination process would be in the parents deciding to not perform the plan at all.
So parents have their parental rights terminated because they a) didn't complete the plan in a timely fashion b) completed the plan in time, but didn't learn anything, or c) refused to participate in the plan.
This is all still a little bit of putting the cart before the horse, because in this case, they're only just past the continued custody hearing and not yet to adjudication. Yet the wheels are already set in motion when the state received the report of abuse, and the investigator swore on an affidavit that the abuse existed or there was a potential for abuse.
I also forgot to address the potential issue that these cases were not handled individually, but I predict that given the circumstances of this case with the short fuse and the facts being similar, an appelate court will overlook that tidbit and claim the lower court did the best job possible and acted in good faith by hearing this case en globo. For the adjudication, individual hearings must occur because the evidentiary standard will be raised.
Here is the pdf "Emergency Motion for Stay Pending Review of Petition for Writ of Mandamus," found at Kidjacked
Tidbit? Now due process is a "tidbit."
Scotty, beam me up!
The scary part is you are probably right. It will come to that.
Thank you for all the insights though. Very well said and informative.
Anon,
Thanks for sharing. We may not agree 100%, but close.
Do you have a link or access to the ruling of the 14 day hearing, and any other public documents (motions, orders...)?
Thank In Advance
:)
In case any missed it;
FLDS Church lawyers taking steps to sue Texas
Letter to Carey Cockerell, Commissioner Texas DFPS
Letter to David Doran, Schleicher County Sheriff
Letter to Joyce James, Asst. Commissoner Texas DFPS
A Timeline of Events To Date
"Once the children are legally in state custody, the families are herded down the chute to the branding station at the end. It is a one way trip that precious few escape. Parents are expected to moo softly and move along. Children are taught that their parents were unfit to care for them and that they were abused."
I really, really, wish to God I could argue against this characterization, but I'd be lying if I did. Not to mention that the children are ALWAYS and WITHOUT FAIL in EVERY SINGLE CASE found to be ADHD, ODD, Bi-Polar or some such and prescribed serious medication. In one case where I was the ad litem, they were giving major league anti-depressents to a little girl not yet two years old.
Pamela Jeffs delivered a healthy boy...
...is one of 26 women CPS says is a minor - although a court document prepared by a state investigator lists her as 18. Attorney Rod Parker, an FLDS spokesman, also said Jeffs is 18.
...Parker said that 40 women who went to a domestic violence shelter in San Angelo last week when officials said they could no longer stay with children older than age 1 have all returned to the ranch.
Seems they are still not clear on where all children are placed, or at least not letting all parents know anyway.
Official: History of injuries found in polgamist sect kids
The chief of protective services in Texas is telling legislators that investigators have uncovered a history of physical injuries, including broken bones, in children taken from a polygamst sect.
On first reading, I thought, "I was wrong and 'they' were right. Why defend the FLDS? Wait, I'm not defending the FLDS. I'm defending the Constitution and due process. What' wrong with that?" Further, there is no assertion these injuries were do to child abuse, though that is certainly the implication. Are these injuries any different than in a normal cross section of kids?
I wish it were possible to trust the CPS. The "state legislative committee" will likely not question this at all though it should. If any child abuse allegations are true, that is one thing and prosecution is warranted; but if CPS is manipulating the media, that is quite another. Either way, due process is due process.
While things were slow this morning, I went back through some of the court documents available and added much to my notes.
For any that have not read them, the links below take you directly to them.
The "Motion to Transfer Seized Property 1" I find to be the most interesting, since quite a bit that was seized within in it was in the search for Sarah is rather questionable.
Court Documents
Original affidavits (4/3 & 4/6)
Child Custody Affidavit
Order for Investigation (Sarah case)
Order for Special Advocate
Motion to Transfer Seized Property 1
Motion to Transfer Seized Property 2
Order Removing Cell Phones
DNA Parentage Testing
Order for Placement of Children
Petition for Protection of Children (filed 4/7, ?submitted late 4/6?)
*********************************
In case any need it, Page links above originated HERE
Thanks Anon
The judge helped to fabricate the EMOTIONAL ABUSE with her Media Doc...
The CPS case workers & spokespersons have spun the SEXUAL ABUSE continuously since they had the Sheriff get involved...
Now the Chief in Charge at the state agency is working to infer PHYSICAL ABUSE...
Looks like they've covered all three bases, just waiting for someone to bring 'em home to score now.
I keep seeing posts about the FLDS mothers collecting welfare from Texas (not Utah).
Is there any real evidence of this?
I support the removal of the children (big secret there) and the prosecution of anyone that violated the Sexual Assault and/or Bigamy statutes, but I haven't seen anything that supports the welfare claims.
There is enough here to condemn the potential violators without adding charges based on dubious claims of welfare fraud.
"I keep seeing posts about the FLDS mothers collecting welfare from Texas (not Utah).
Is there any real evidence of this?"
I haven't seen any, and one would think that the local people would have spoken up about food stamps and the like. It seems incredible to believe that, other than the SS benefits the older people--and ones with disabilities--were getting, these people were getting welfare--especially with a property tax bill like this
I drafted this last week--relevant news not addressed in media:
Although, I do not believe the FLDS teachings, I share grave concerns on how Texas has taken these children, along with the Baptist’s role.
Read why and see data – as this fact is virtually absent from media reports:
Governor Rick Perry called on “Baptists Child and Family Services” a “humanitarian nonprofit” to command and control the mass shelters now holding the FLDS children. I am experienced in FEMA emergency management, so I now what this means. I reported this to Matt Drudge (Drudge Report) this am; and although, he has not posted anything on it (there are virtually no articles to post) well, now the Baptist’s BCFS page has gone ‘under construction.’ Their main page is still up.
In addition, this Baptist org. offers “foster care and ADOPTION” service too. The state of TX 'outsources' foster/adoption to contracting agencies. Will this ’service’ Baptist organization get these children to foster out too? Yes, read on.
http://www.bcfs.net/NetCommunity/Page.aspx?pid=581&srcid=183
Baptist history of sexual abuse: According to the Dallas Morning News, Christa Brown of Austin, has helped the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP) to extend its work to victims of Baptist clergy. The baptist convention has long kept a secret confidential list of pastors believed to have engaged in homosexual relationships or sexual misconduct including adultery or pornography addiction. Pastors can get on the list through a conviction or, in the case of noncriminal activity, a confession or a report from a church.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/religion/stories/060607dnmetbaptistabuse.3748e50.html
Ref. web page by an attorney who endured Baptist abuses for years: www.stopbaptistpredators.org
UPDATE: The original web page (now 'under construction) showing photos of the FLDS children and detailing Baptist Children Family Services overseeing the shelters, was authored by Kevin Dinnan, Pres. Since they took down the web page showing them operating the FLDS shelters over these children, I searched and found a Baptist Associated Press article which reveals 5 Baptist orgs. (churches and foster/adoption) involved; the BCFS running the shelters at the request of the State Governor’s Emergency Management Agency and it appears the FLDS babies and children are to be moved on into the Baptist hands for foster and likely adoption...into the hands of Baptist sexual predators?
http://www.abpnews.com/3120.article
UPDATE: APRIL 25, 2008: As I predicted, Baptists take 75 childre