Friday, April 18, 2008

Phone Call Alleging Abuse at YFZ was Fake: Can the kids all go home, now?

From the Denver Post:

Prank calls from a 33-year-old Colorado Springs woman may be linked to the raid at a West Texas polygamist compound, Colorado Springs police say.

Rozita Swinton was arrested at her home Wednesday evening on charges of false reporting in a local case, but Texas Rangers were present for the arrest, Colorado Springs police said Thursday night.

ABC News reported on its website Thursday that former Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints member Flora Jessop, who operates a rescue mission for teenage girls trying to escape the sect, told Texas authorities she had gotten calls from a girl claiming to be an abused member named Sarah.

A girl with that same name made the original calls for help to a San Angelo, Texas, hotline, sparking the raid in which 416 children were taken into protective custody.

Jessop told ABC News that the Texas Rangers directed her to record the calls and the Texas Rangers traced those calls to Colorado Springs.

Though announcing the Rangers' involvement, Colorado Springs police declined to elaborate on the Texas link, and records in Swinton's Colorado Springs case have been sealed by a judge. Colorado Springs police said Swinton's Wednesday arrest was on local charges involving calls in which she claimed to be an abused child being held in a basement.

So here's where we are:

No complaining victims exist and the original abuse allegations were fraudulent, pumped up in the media by anti-polygamist activists.

No pregnant girls were found at the YFZ Ranch who were under 16 (the legal marriage age in Texas, with parental consent).

The most troubling outstanding claim: A CPS investigator testified one FLDS woman "may" have given birth as young as 13, which of course also means she "may" not have done so. The same CPS investigator, Angie Voss, also testified yesterday that an FLDS woman told her "Sarah" does exist and does have a baby, something all FLDS sources deny, and which we now know is likely not true.

More than 400 kids have been removed from their homes at state expense as a result of this fraud, generating court proceedings that are presently descending into farce.

Can the Judge put a stop to this now, please? Identify any individual cases that can be actually proven (I doubt there are any; five pregnant girls between 16 and 19 does not an abuse case make) and send the rest of the group and their lawyers home with the thanks and apologies of the court.

Then the FLDSers can turn their attention to filing what will likely be a vastly lucrative federal Sec. 1983 claim for this massive violation of their constitutional and parental rights.

See all related Grits posts rounded up here. MORE: From Messenger and Advocate.

AND MORE: Quite a few people have been asking "Where is the Texas ACLU?" in the whole FLDS debacle. The group broke its silence for the first time today, issuing a press release, but only to announce they're "observing" the situation.

SEE ALSO, From the Salt Lake City Tribune, see this account of testimony by a Mormon expert on FLDS doctrine and marriage practices, who told the court today that "it's not part of FLDS doctrine or scripture that teenage girls marry and have sex with older men. ... 'It's a major distortion to say they should engage in adolescent sexual activity'"

UPDATE: Judge rules all 416 kids should stay with the state.

48 comments:

kbp said...

Thanks Grits!

I think I'd put my money on this hearing is going to proceed as planned.

I have not witnessed a lick of sense in the conduct shown to us in this case by the Sheriff, the Behind-The-Scenes prosecutors, the CPS or the Judge - all of which just made up their own rules as they went along.

I have said from the start that the CPS is the fall guy (gal) for this fiasco. All involved wanted to play the war games and sentence the suspects from the beginning, so they looked for some Anger Studies grad's to jump in and take the lead.

The most obvious CYA for a 1983 complaint is to look for someone to convict of something. They already have Reasonable Suspicion and very likely Probable Cause for what started the mess, so they need to cover for all the problems (civil rights violations) that then followed.

Besides, continuing now with the mess, maybe reduced to one ot two indictments, is the perfect tool to buy time with. Let the media attention die off some, nobody will care about any rights violations those polygamist claim in a few years.

I bet their are quite a few in that group of leaders - those the 700 storm troopers followed orders from - searching up "absolute" and "qualified immunity" cases today.

Anonymous said...

Is Texas prepared to place all children of girls under 16 in the custody of the State?

Can't and shouldn't be done.

Anything less becomes a violation of the FLDS members and the children's civil rights!

Judge Walthier -- You go girl!

Doran Williams said...

xyqniLet us assume Rep. Hilderbran does not succeed in putting off State voting privileges for FLDS members for another two or three years, and assume also that the FLDS people will register to vote. If there are no intervening mass criminal convictions of FLDS adults, there could be a significant change in the identity and character of the local Schleicher County courthouse gang in a couple of years, including the Sheriff's Office.

The most likely way the "old locals" can put off such changes, is to push what is now farce into some kind of new, existentialist absurdism, by indicting and attempting to convict all the FLDS adults of felony offenses, and deprive them of their right to vote by doing so. They could be indicted either in state courts, and get what will possibly be a hostile jury, or in federal courts, and get what is possibly a hostile jury.

I doubt that FLDS, the Eldorado Kids, and what is turning into a State Of Texas war on that church, are going to stay out of the media, as kbp suggests.

Ron in Houston said...

I always suspected the calls were fake.

One thing you're forgetting about CPS is that the call is not evidence for removal of the children. It is what prompts the "investigation" that CPS conduct before deciding to remove the children.

Things like the exclusionary rule don't apply when it comes to the "best interests" of the children. Heck, there have even been cases where appeals courts have allowed trial courts to suspend things like pleading rules and evidence rules when it comes to the "best interests" of the children.

It's truly scary to think that someone can phone in a bunch of lies and your kids can be snatched by CPS. It happens every day in some city in Texas.

Ron in Houston said...

Grits

FYI - CPS, and CASA yesterday were saying they were readying for placement of FLDS kids. Apparently, Montgomery County seems to be the landing point for some of them.

kbp said...

FLDS hearing lurches through 11 hours of uncertainty in San Angelo courtroom

Girls at the YFZ Ranch were forced into marriage and gave birth as young as 13, a Child Protective Services investigator testified in perhaps the most groundbreaking moment of a sometimes-dramatic but mainly tedious opening to the state's largest custody hearing.

Although CPS investigations supervisor Angie Voss could confirm only five of the 416 children taken into custody since April 3 are younger than 17 and have either given birth or are pregnant, she told two packed courtrooms that dozens more young women likely conceived before legal age.


Look at this pattern of reporting at the Go San Angelo!

Tells of a 13 year old giving birth and follows in the next paragraph to let all know that the CPS could only confirm 5 younger that 17. They do not even tell of the younger than 16, so any attentive reader sees there must not be any to report evidently, while the majority reading headlines quickly are loading their guns to blast those OLD child rapist that are all raping the 13 year olds.

A prime example of WHY readers turn to bloggers for the truth and ignore the MSM today. The losses in the media conglomerates indicate this is the trend.

Jerri Lynn Ward said...

I am almost more frightened for these children because the phone call was fake. The State of Texas is going to be in complete CYA mode, and I think, will go heavier on the attack. Also, this judge issued a search warrant on incredibly shaky grounds, and then a removal order which has resulted in complete chaos. The question I have, is whether she has the necessary humility to acknowledge to herself that she has been part of an egregious situation, and the required strength to save these children from the horrors of the CPS system.

kbp said...

This is getting absurd. I'm reading the live reports at Go San Angelo. (linked to share)

"Up to this point in the investigation, there are over 20 girls in the investigation who have conceived or given birth at the age of 16 or 17," Voss says. "What I'm telling you is that there is a culture of young girls being pregnant by old men."

So there was a girl like that in all 19 residences on the ranch?

"Yes, sir, there was," Voss says.


She had just testified yesterday that "that the CPS could only confirm 5 younger that 17", so evidently she has traced back the DOB's dates on some of the older women living there. .

What would girls getting pregnant legally have to do with proving "sexual and physical abuse" took place, or the penal codes that are alleged to have been violated?

Ron in Houston said...

If people think CPS is in CYA mode, they don't know CPS. CPS thinks 100% that what they are doing is right. CPS doesn't care one iota that this thing was started with a bunch of lies.

Wrong or not, CPS sticks to their guns.

The Local Crank said...

This has all the makings of a judicial catastrophe, along the lines of the "Satanic daycare abuse" scare of a few years back, especially in light of sensationalistic media coverage (and some commenters on this site)focusing not on the facts of the case but on things they don't like about Mormons in general and FLDS in particular. Fer God's sake, what major religions does have "archaelogical evidence" to support it? And the more media scrutiny, the greater the inclination of the agencies involved to "circle the wagons." The only hope those kids have now is that the volunteer batallion of ad litems will put the heat on the State to either offer some evidence beyond wild supposition and strained construction of the law ("one household"? Does this now apply to every town in Texas with less than 1,000 people?) or return these kids before they are traumatized even further.

Anonymous said...

I believe you misread that article. The phone calls to Flora Jessop were the ones that were traced to Colorado Springs, not the original calls to the Texas domestic abuse hotline alleging abuse. The article isn't clear on the timeline but I presume the calls to Flora Jessop occurred after this whole media circus got going. The Colorado woman in question sounds like a bit of a nut who has a habit of faking things like this.

I agree that there's a LOT wrong with this whole investigation, but it has not been shown that "the original abuse allegations were fraudulent" as you say.

A Christian Prophet said...

I've been reading the hundreds of comments from outraged citizens at:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/free-the-innocent-flds
Also, I've seen the video of Texas Foster Care system horrors at:
http://dayofpraise.blogspot.com/

Whew! What a situation!

Anonymous said...

I was looking for "Grits for Breakfast" but it appears that I have found the Pedophilia support page. I seriously doubt that CPS wanted to undertake such a massive case to the extent that they fabricated evidence. CPS has enough to do on their typical child abuse cases: they don"t need to "create work" I believe that allegations of systematic RAPE of young girls is sufficient to trigger an investigation. Of course, I'm not a member of any men's advocate group that thinks there's nothing wrong with bigamy/polygamy. As a matter of fact, it is illegal. CPS also needs to look into the fact there's no boys in the group of children seized. The CPS needs to look into the doctrine of "Blood Atonement" and determine if there's an infant cemetary in the compound.
And when you say,
"go home", you mean to the compound where apparently none of the children are sure who their parents are?
Is this a logistical nightmare? Yes. Should logistical problems keep the state from pursuing it's legal duty to investigate the claims of RAPE?
No.

Anonymous said...

They won't send the kids home. Once CPS comes into your home it is very difficult to get them out, even if they themselves admit that the original complaint was bogus. Ask anybody who's had a phony complaint filed by a vindictive spouse or neighbor.

Texas "rescued" me from an "abusive home" 44 years ago and gave me to a handpicked adoptive home where I really WAS physically and sexually abused. The scars will never heal.

Texas seals adoption records too. Try to find your siblings, and Texas says they can't release records because it "violates your siblings' privacy." Your sibs are told the same when they look for you. You have to get a court order for release, and can only petition the county court that finalized your adoption. Dallas judge Gaither did it on demand. Others, like mine, refuse for any reason, including medical emergencies.

These kids may never find their parents or siblings again.

Most everyone knows an adoptee who successfully searched, so they think it's that easy, and anyone who wants to can do it. Utterly false.

Texas gets federal funding for adopting kids thru foster care. Think they'll give that up? No. And its the children who will suffer.

Headmistress, zookeeper said...

The police has already had the dogs out at the ranch, sniffing for bodies. They've dug up the children's flower beds but haven't come across anything more incriminating than that.

People will believe just about anything, it seems, as long as it's about people who dress funny and believe weird stuff.

rage said...

Things like the exclusionary rule don't apply when it comes to the "best interests" of the children. Heck, there have even been cases where appeals courts have allowed trial courts to suspend things like pleading rules and evidence rules when it comes to the "best interests" of the children.

When it results in harmless error, maybe.

rage said...

I believe that allegations of systematic RAPE of young girls is sufficient to trigger an investigation.

Here's hoping that nobody ever accuses you of abuse.

And here's the real kicker: if they find any child molestors, they will very likely not be able to prosecute them now. Nobody here is supporting pedophelia, but they are demanding that the proper procedures are followed. That applies when someone named sarah says she's being raped (remove Sarah, or even all of the Sarahs there, not all 416 kids), and it applies when they find out that their evidence was wrong and that there is likely no abuse.

Gritsforbreakfast said...

To the smart ass who wrote: "I was looking for "Grits for Breakfast" but it appears that I have found the Pedophilia support page"

Sling your crap in some other monkey cage, then, if that's how you feel. We've been through the terminology on other comment strings. No one in Eldorado has been accused of "pedophilia," which is sex with pre-pubescent children, not 16 year olds (the age of the youngest pregnant girl found on the compound). The legal marriage age in Texas is 16 with a parent's consent.

Rage is right. They went for the grandstanding headlines, and as a result lost any chance to go after real abusers. I guess at least Greg Abbott got his face on national TV. Then again, so did Mike Nifong.

kbp said...

Oh Boy!

"Attorney Tip Hargrove, who represents two FLDS women, elicited [psychiatrist Bruce] Perry's admission that he has never spoken with a leader of the FLDS nor read the church's doctrine. The courtroom broke into laughter when he said he has gained his knowledge through press accounts, though he takes them "with a grain of salt."

Hargrove questioned Perry whether there would be anything the FLDS parents could tell the court that would argue in favor of sending the children home. Perry said parents could tell the court three things: that they do not believe girls should be married before age 18; that they are open to making more transparent boundaries between themselves and the outside world so the children are not so fearful of the outside world; and that they will increase true free choices for their children."


The big problem I anticipate here is it does not address 416 individual cases, or at least each family as individual units to determine what they are like. He condemns a religous following without actually studying it, the CPS's own community = household approach.

One has to wonder if Perry is a Nancy Grace fan.

Myst0nia said...

I invite you to check out these links for information that was available before these raids took place:
Help the Child Brides
The Boston Globe
Salt Lake City Weekly

kbp said...

I appreciate the invitation!

Maybe you could help us all save time.

Show me how these links help us to be certain that in these 416 individual cases presently under discussion here, there is proof of;

Sexual assault of a child violating Texas Penal Code Section 22.011; or

Bigamy violating Texas Penal Code Section 25.01; or

Sexual abuse; or

Physical abuse.

Thanks In Advance

:)

Ron in Houston said...

kbp

You don't have to prove physical or sexual abuse. All you need show is that a parent engages in conduct that endangers the "emotional well-being" of the child.

The parent child relationship is supposedly a constitutionally protected relationship. I've often felt that was pretty vague language for a constitutionally protected relationship.

Anonymous said...

Ron, if they're worried about the kids emotional well being, how about taking them out of a homeschooled, 19th century ranch environment, herding them around like cattle, and even sticking them with San Angelo public school teachers, God help them! If they did that to homeschooled Christian kids in San Angelo people would go nuts!

Besides, who worried about the kids emotional wellbeing when battle-geared cops with automatic weapons and a TANK swept onto their ranch? My guess is that scene and these last two weeks will stick with these kids the rest of their lives. If they feel vitimized, I bet they'll blame CPS, not their parents.

Anonymous said...

So is someone going to bring up the Proxmire act? Let me quote it:

(a) Basic Offense. - Whoever, whether in time of peace or in time
of war, in a circumstance described in subsection (d) and with the
specific intent to destroy, in whole or in substantial part, a
national, ethnic, racial, or religious group as such -
(1) kills members of that group;
(2) causes serious bodily injury to members of that group;
(3) causes the permanent impairment of the mental faculties of
members of the group through drugs, torture, or similar
techniques;
(4) subjects the group to conditions of life that are intended
to cause the physical destruction of the group in whole or in
part;
(5) imposes measures intended to prevent births within the
group; or
(6) transfers by force children of the group to another group;

or attempts to do so, shall be punished as provided in subsection
(b).
(b) Punishment for Basic Offense. - The punishment for an offense
under subsection (a) is -
(1) in the case of an offense under subsection (a)(1), where
death results, by death or imprisonment for life and a fine of
not more than $1,000,000, or both; and
(2) a fine of not more than $1,000,000 or imprisonment for not
more than twenty years, or both, in any other case.

(c) Incitement Offense. - Whoever in a circumstance described in
subsection (d) directly and publicly incites another to violate
subsection (a) shall be fined not more than $500,000 or imprisoned
not more than five years, or both.
(d) Required Circumstance for Offenses. - The circumstance
referred to in subsections (a) and (c) is that -
(1) the offense is committed within the United States; or
(2) the alleged offender is a national of the United States (as
defined in section 101 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8
U.S.C. 1101)).

(e) Nonapplicability of Certain Limitations. - Notwithstanding
section 3282 of this title, in the case of an offense under
subsection (a)(1), an indictment may be found, or information
instituted, at any time without limitation.


I believe an order of the court that removes all these children is a violation of this act under (a)(4), (5), or (6). Clearly the FLDS is a religion and clearly the Texas authorities are trying to destroy it by those methods. When will the Lubbock USDA criminal prosecution office begin prosecution?

rage said...

You don't have to prove physical or sexual abuse. All you need show is that a parent engages in conduct that endangers the "emotional well-being" of the child.

Continuing to lower the bar? Great.

The pro-raid folks are in full retreat and CYA mode.

kbp said...

Thanks Ron

I did leave out "emotional". I was just quoting the Affidavit I had handy and the "abuse" identified on the CPS web site, off the top of my head.

That web site tells the world that, according to the judge, it has already been concluded there was sexual and physical abuse.

Looks like evidence for a federal case, but then it's obvious I am not an attorney.

Cicero said...

Well, I've nailed my flag to the mast.

Trying to get some attention in the Conservative-Libertarian political realm.

http://www.redstate.com/blogs/
cicero/2008/apr/18/
texas_pouring_piss_from_a_boot

Feel free to stop by and Recommend my blog so that maybe we can get people there to pay attention to it.

I hope the Local Crank doesn't mind my stealing of his turn of phrase

kbp said...

Don't mess with TEXAS!!

Judge rules state will retain custody of FLDS children

Texas - District Court Judge Barbara Walther has ruled all 416 FLDS children will remain in state custody, and that the state has met its burden of proof required by law.

...what was it Ron said?

Ron in Houston said...

kbp 5:50 and Grits

"I hate CPS. They took me away from my parents. They ruined my life."

These are the actual statements by a potential juror in a CPS case. Unfortunately, these people rarely make it onto the jury.

The Local Crank said...

"Texas - District Court Judge Barbara Walther has ruled all 416 FLDS children will remain in state custody, and that the state has met its burden of proof required by law"

In nearly ten years of doing CPS cases, only once have I seen a judge deny a removal at an adversary hearing, and that was only after I had demonstrated that the case workers committed perjury on the affidavits, and after those case workers refused to appear in court in defiance of subpoena. I was the ad litem for the children in that case, come to think of it.

Blogosapian said...

To the douchebag who said this..
I was looking for "Grits for Breakfast" but it appears that I have found the Pedophilia support page.
____________

This is the sort of person who called people traitors for not believing in WMD's. Basically this person is claiming that if you believe the state of Texas over prosecuted this case, you must be a pedophile. This sort of
extremist attitude is far worse than anything this church does.

Remember the McMartin Child Abuse case? The prosecuters, who turned out to be liars, ruined the lives of several hundred people in order to prove a crime that was never committed.

The damage the state of Texas has done to these children will not be forgiven. I hope they sue the hell of of the State, the governer, the Judge, Mrs. Meisner,
and every other redneck that is looking for 15 minutes of fame.

Anonymous said...

If it is proven that young girls were being impregnated and having children with the consent or urging of their guardians, I hope every person who is saying that nothing wrong was ever done to these kids takes back their words.

The fact is that isolated, deviant groups are fertile grounds for abuse. History has shown this time and time again. There's no use in arguing against that point.

We don't know if children have given birth to other children or if statutory rape and coerced sexual activity occurred. There is no way to know until the ordered DNA tests are complete.

I hope the tests show that no child was coerced into bearing children of their own. But it seems like many people simply do not understand how cults and extremist groups function, and they won't even entertain the idea that horrible things happen in isolation (such as in TYC, for example) because that is what human nature gravitates towards. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. This is true for people everywhere, no matter how "pure" they say their beliefs are.

Cicero said...

I am quite clear in my belief that crimes have been committed, and that several FLDS men need to be prosecuted. That does not stop me from being horrified at the way the Constitutional right of these people have been violated.

Nor does it keep me from advocating for redress for these violations

Headmistress, zookeeper said...

"If it is proven that young girls were being impregnated and having children with the consent or urging of their guardians, I hope every person who is saying that nothing wrong was ever done to these kids takes back their words."

So far as I know, nobody has ever said that absolutely nothing wrong was ever done to any of the 416 FLDS children. Mostly what I've said is that I'd like to see the same standard of proof, the same respect for law and logic, the same care with facts extended even to cults as I would like extended to me should an anonymous caller with a grudge ever sick CPS on me.

"The fact is that isolated, deviant groups are fertile grounds for abuse. History has shown this time and time again. There's no use in arguing against that point."

Right. And another fact is that an unchecked government agency that ignores the constitution is also fertile grounds for abuse. History has shown this again and and again. Google Wenatchee Witch Hunts for a more recent example than the McMartin preschool case.

Thus far, CPS has argued that it's abusive to believe that it's okay to agree with the state of Texas that girls of 16 may legally marry with their parents' consent.

They have provided medical records of exactly ten girls- all of them 16 and over, at least one of them 19 years old. Only five of these girls are pregnant or have children. Not one of them is too young to be legally married in the state of Texas. They have presented NO evidence, not even a CLAIM that any of the girls was under 16 when she conceived- and while you and I may not like 16 year olds marrying, the state of Texas disagrees- they only changed the law from 14 up to 16 in 2005!

"We don't know if children have given birth to other children or if statutory rape and coerced sexual activity occurred. There is no way to know until the ordered DNA tests are complete."

Right. And we don't know this about your and your children, either. So let's have CPS take your kids and hold them incommunicado in an old fort with unsanitary conditions while you prove your innocence to us. Meanwhile, CPS will make all kinds of unsupported allegations about you and your family and religion to the press, but will take away your phone privileges if you try to contact the press to counter their tales with the truth.

What they say to the press will have no resemblance to the case they actually present in court, but it doesn't matter, because I don't like the way you dress, the way you live, or where you go to church. That proves that you're probably guilty enough that the rest of this doesn't matter.

Meanwhile, we're taking the kids of all the families in your neighborhood and church, too, because their parents should have known what an abuser you are. We don't like what you believe, and CPS will testify to that effect in court (as they have done here) but will tell the press that you are a dirty old man who molests 13 year old girls. They will present *no* evidence of abused 13 year old girls in court.

You probably won't get your kids back, or if you do, they will have been abused (1 in four kids are abused in foster care). And there has never been any evidence presented that YOU are guilty of any wrong doing.

Tough.

Is that the sort of police state you really want to see? I don't, and that's why this case troubles me. Not because FLDS is pure as the driven snow, but because CPS obviously isn't, and they have all the force of law behind them and it doesn't bother enough people the way it should.

Anonymous said...

The McMartin case wasn't the first, it was preceded by the McCuan/Kniffen case. It only took the same Kern County Superior Court, 14 years to reverse itself in that case even though the Kern County Grand Jury (which is the Superior Court's grand jury) asked the CA AG to investigate, partly because it still took him several years to do the investigation. See http://www.religioustolerance.org/ra_baker.htm
(begin sarcasticism)
Given Texas's superior efforts to eliminate corruption from its CPS, DAs and courts (end sarcasticism), I doubt without federal intervention this case will ever be justly heard.

kbp said...

In My Opinion...

...many suspected this would be the outcome, but I'd imagine that, just like myself, all were stunned by the bold route taken to arrive where it's at now.

The state faced 416 cases of individual citizens with the right to due process. What a task to be faced with. How could it be handled? A strategy for a solution was badly needed.

It was obvious that the state had to put on some sort of case to show at least a pinch of a problem each individual case faced, or hand them back to their mothers.

Now even a dim witted gladiators in this ruckus would realize the need to seek advice from the local imperial wizard of swift wholesale solutions, their amazing District Judge, Ms. Barbara Walther. The players from the team - the entity working the guard the acceptable CULTure - that were burdened with this task, knew they were the DEPROGRAMMERS without a plan. Imagine the wood byrning as they strategized together.

DEPROGGRAMMERS - Your Honor, there are so soooo many, even little babies, how can we disassemble this group?

IMPERIAL WIZARD - What have we got so far?

DEPROGGRAMMERS - Lots of media reports and an even spread of distrust for any that isolate themselves from our perfect society.

IMPERIAL WIZARD - Okay, what about actual crimes we know of?

DEPROGGRAMMERS - Well, if we dip back into history, it's obvious what they used to do is not acceptable in today's standards.

IMPERIAL WIZARD - All rigtht, for your testimony study up on adjectives which imply guilt and find me a Media Doc. Maybe you could call Nancy Grace and get a few names.

DEPROGGRAMMERS - Will do. What about that 'due process' thingy for all 416?

IMPERIAL WIZARD - Let me sleep on it, I'll handle that at my end.

So through a group effort, they worked as well as any finely tuned championship team ever witnessed in the Great State of Texas.

The DEPROGRAMMERS strided through a mammoth 21 hours - 1,260 minutes - of testimony and cross examination. A brilliant performance that helped all to see how their warm hearted efforts would save not only a COMPOUND full of victims, but at the same time tackle the chore of rounding up the sexual predators in the making.

The objective was not only to rid their society of present and future dangers, but to help the OCCUPANTS OF THAT COMPOUND themselves to see they are so sheltered they don't even realize they are all criminals and victims. As a display of kindness, a full 3 minutes of their valuable time had been provided for each individual in this process.

All ended with the IMPERIAL WIZARD showing she had run out of time, too exhausted to address even the individuals by name, but held just enough strength to lay out the ground work for society's next task. Again as a group of one, not 416 individual inquiries, she demanded the DNA of the parents of each child. The door closed on the future problems, but we all know they'll just keep on breeding.

Another brilliant move! The DNA witch hunt will uncover crimes; allow all to prove their innocence; slow down or eliminate the growth of the wrong beliefs.

Problems solved for another generation. What we wear and eat is safe for the time being. We should all appreciate the times authority figures can operate without restraints!

Alan Bean said...

Scott,
When I told a journalist friend that the initial call that spawned the raid was fishy, he said I was forever paranoid of law enforcement. That's right. And with good reason.
There are so many reasons to be leary of this invasion of the YFZ community.
Think of the outcome for the current county elected officials with a block vote by the YFZ community. We've been hearing concerns about this since the community bought the land about four years ago. Coming from an insular county, I'm well aware of the fear and suspicion towards "outsiders" even if their presence promises increased prosperity for the community. I have no doubt that good people of Eldorado have been plotting "solutions" for four years.
I am no defender of polygamy or of pediphilia. But these are not such slam dunk accusations. Traditional and stable cultures the world over practice polygamy. Our dominant culture, on the other hand promotes and practices promiscuity for all without benefit of the culturally recognized accountability of marriage as protector of children.
I don't recall Homeland Security raiding the corporate offices of Media and Fashion Industry for evidence that they groom young children to be sexually promiscuous at an early age.
With regard to pediphilia: pediphilia is the mental illness of being sexually attracted to prepubescent children. Texas law makes 17 the magic age, and sends thousands of young fathers to prison for having sex with the willing and underage mothers of their children, who wait at home for their release.
And while our laws make underage sex a felony with a life sentence, our public culture grooms our children to believe that promiscuous sex is the hallmark of a free society and that sexual desirability is the pinnacle of worthiness.
What hypocrisy to spend millions of dollars to "rescue" a group of well-nourished, protected children in a disciplined community while abandoning thousands of children to the streets of Houston and Dallas and San Antonio.
Nancy Bean

doran williams said...

I will appreciate it if someone will specify exactly how many children were found by the judge to have been abused, if any. Forget about who testified about what: The more important point is the finding by the presiding judge.

Grits, it is almost certain that one or more of the lawyers involved in the Hearing will order a transcript of the hearing from the Court Reporter. If you can acquire a copy of that transcript, and post at least the testimony and the ruling of the judge from the bench, as well as the final written order of the judge, it may prove helpful to this ongoing discussion.

Ron in Houston said...

doran

The scary part of this is that the Judge doesn't need to find physical or emotional abuse.

All the judge needs to find is that the environment is a danger to the physical or emotional WELL-BEING of the children.

Obviously in this case the finding would be danger to the emotional well-being of the children.

Now I don't know about you, but I'd say that life in general is dangerous to anyone's emotional well-being.

Doran Williams said...

Ron, the reason I asked for some specific findings is this (what follows), and I want to be somewhat sure about the specific findings of the judge.

Subject to seeing the transcript and any findings by the judge, here is what we have: (1) Testimony by CPS investigators, etc., that one or more of the children at the ranch might be, could be, at some future unknown time, abused in some unspecified way; (2) apparently no unequivocal evidence of actual child abuse; and (3) an admission by the CPS investigator that all 416 of those kids will be severely traumatized by being jerked out of their homes and families, and shipped off to live with strangers. Some of them, statistically speaking, will be physically abused in those foster homes.

In other words, Her Honor has legitimized certain, sure-as-heck child abuse by the State of Texas at the request of the State of Texas, supposedly to avoid some possible, unknown, remote chance of abuse by the parents of the children or by others at the ranch, if the parents stay there. This is a terrible decision by that judge; one that is undoubtly informed by local notions of political correctness, and by vote counting. She should resign and go back into a real estate practice or some other form of practice where she cannot do so much harm.

I want to see a transcript, so I can copy it and send it with a letter to my State Rep. The biggest problem with CPS in this case is that they were allowed to plead and offer evidence to "prove" that relationships legal under the law (marriage to a 14 year old) constituted child abuse, a theory which the judge swallowed whole. I want to see some changes to the TFC that will prohibit CPS or any other state agency from alleging, as child abuse or neglect, any actions other than those defined by the Legislature as such. We don't need free-style, off the cuff, curb stone decisions by CPS staff as to what is abusive. They should not have that authority any more that law enforcement should have the authority to "legislate" on the spot as what acts are criminal.

You can bet that there will be a serious work-out on the TFC and on CPS in the next session. I want my State Rep. to know how fucking angry I am about this debacle and what I want done so it cannot happen again.

kbp said...

Doran,

"I want to see a transcript, so I can copy it and send it with a letter to my State Rep."

Go San Angelos has their live reporting available. See link in 7th comment posted here.


"...offer evidence to "prove" that relationships legal under the law (marriage to a 14 year old) constituted child abuse, a theory which the judge swallowed whole."

There were no reports in the media that a claim come out of any 14 YO girls married or pregnant at the YFZ, actually none under 16 YO. The 14 YO was comments about some in the past when they trailed of into history, at the Judge's approval.

The judge really ruled on the religion itself after the Media Doc - who admitted his research on the FLDS was by what was reported in the media - gave her the narrative she told us would be used by her in making a decision.

Doran Williams said...

Thank you, KBP, for the link. It was interesting reading, but I need an official transcript by the Court Reporter.

Grits, if you need some help paying for a copy of the transcript, send me a private email about where to send a check and to whom to make it payable. Or post that info on your blog.

I really shouldn't read so early in the day crap like that Ranger's affidavit, or the CPS affidavit, or the proceedings in court: It will keep me angry and upset all day.

Scuse me now, but I need to go plant some beans in the garden and clear some mesquite and cedar.

Anonymous said...

Would this discussion be different if the sect's beliefs on relationships, child rearing, and marriage were different?

What if the sect were matriarchal, and young boys were groomed to become one of many husbands to older, dominant women in the sect?

What if the sect believed in bisexual love and marriages, and young girls were groomed to marry older women, or young boys were groomed to be "given" to older men? What if the younger women, when paired with older women, were impregnated by men or boys outside the marriage relationship in order to continue procreation in the group as a whole?

Would it be hypocritical to oppose these practices on principle, but not oppose the practice of grooming girls to be "given" to older men, based on principle? And if a person thinks it's somehow acceptable to deny females self-determination and freedom apart from the dominion of men, but it's not okay to deny young men their freedom, what does that say about people's attitudes towards women? Are people still consciously or subconsciously of the belief that subservience is more "tasteful" or culturally acceptable when females are the subservient?

Jerri Lynn Ward said...

I would also volunteer to help pay--or raise money--for a copy of the transcript. We could set up a chipin for the transcript and I know exactly who to promote it to here in Austin.

These people need to be exposed.

kbp said...

If we never see the transcripts. I have enough from what was reported to form an opinion on:

"Objections have cropped up that it's taking too long to get to the point of his testimony, and it's narrative.

The judge says that there is a time to do narrative instead of question-and-answer.

Doing questions and answers, she says, will just drag things out."


Trimmed that clock to less than 3 minutes per individual case. Reminds me of a Grand Jury.

I also would PayPal some to help pay, but I hope the most to see the free ruling posted somewhere.

chartelle said...

FACISM IS ALIVE AND WELL; AND LIVING IN TEXAS

Personally, I have no problem in concluding that young girls AND YOUNG MEN should wait until they have reached a certain age of maturity before they get married and start having babies. In an ideal world both should probably wait until they are 18 years of age or older. The main thing is that they should be in a position to properly care for a child...at least the head of household. That means having the financial means and emotional stability to maintain a loving family atmosphere. I just happen to believe that such criteria existed in that mormon communal sect. They certainly have an etended family group to support the needs of those children. Didn't Hillary Clinton say, "It takes a village" to raise a child?

Anyway, the members of that sect are god-fearing, well manered, and humble. The kids are healthy, and appear to be happy(I should say WERE healthy and happy). It is only in state custody that the children are getting sick and developing diseases. To traumatically tear those children away from their parent, and/or parents, and place them into a stark unloving environment (where they are likely cringing in fear) proves that that pompous, arrogant megalomaniac judge is incapable of rendering any ruling or judgment based upon sound reasoning or pragmatism. But, to state that she is doing all that to protect the children is absolutely disingenuous. The infirmities of her body has, likely, warped her mind accordingly...becoming a personality intent on showing the world that she is now God-like, and from her bench she can twist reality and issue orders anyway she sees fit - notwithstanding any constitutional restraints, and/or due process of law.

Of course, a major factor in her ruling that those children remain in custody of the state, is due, in large measure, to the fact that the bitch on the bench has got her ass in a crack. She provided authority for those storm troopers invading that peaceful and unarmed compound with tanks and automatic weapons. What a bunch of heros. It is reminiscent of a detachment of SS Wafen gestopo breaking down the doors of a synagogue. And, what about the reputation ,hereafter, of the legendary Texas Rangers. "One ranger; one riot"? Not hardly. We will now visualize them rounding up them- thar dangereous little girls.

The problem for this judge relates to the fact that the "probable cause", under which she has attempted to justify sicing the dogs on those kids no longer exists. It was a hoax. And, the witch fell for it. Now, she is more or less compelled to follow through with this outrage by keeping those children in state custody.To rule otherwise would be to admit she made a colossal blunder in the first place. So, now, the judge asserts that she was not just rescuing a child held hostage, but that she is saving all the children in that sect from a heineous religious lifestyle (in her pontifical opinion) - a sect that believes in plural marriages...with many of those wives being LEGALLY defined as"underage".

Nevetheless, under due process, any testimony or evidence pertaining to an alleged criminal act committed by a party or parties should have been submitted to the district attorney's office who would have taken those particulars to a grand jury. Then, if the evidence showed a likelihood that a violation of the penal code had occured, that grand jury would hand down a "true bill". At that point, the District Attorney could have approached the judge to seek an arrest warrant, along with a search warrant, seeking evidence related to the crime alleged in the complaint. Those warrant(s) would then be given to the sherriff of the county to serve and execute the said warrants.

It is absolutely an abuse of authority for a presiding judge to appoint herself to handle all such legal processes, and/or to simply ignore due process. Under this circumstance, how is the hell can she then claim that she can be fair and impartial in ajudicationg any aspect of this matter. I simply fail to understand why the lawyers for that sect did not move to recuse that judge, and/or seek a change of venue to a more diverse part of the state. I would certainly hope they are preserving errors by raising objections to all the constitutional abuses made by that judge. I would also expect that this case be removed to a federal court ( writ of certiorari )due to this massive violation of civil rights. Finally, they should go to federal court to obtain a Writ of Habeas Corpus. Those kids did not commit any crime justifying them being held in detention incommunicato. And, there has been no showing that those kids were in any imminent danger from their mothers.

All that court (along with the despicable CPS) has done to justify it's actions has been to mount a massive smear campaign against their religious belief-practice. There has been no showing of proof in a court of law that that sect is living a life of Sodom and Gomorrah...even though the agents of the state are doing their best to demonize that sect with allegations that it's members are engaged in some sort of sex orgies. Of course, the ridiculous news media is only to happy to report any such smear jobs since sex mixed with religion grabs headlines, and sells newspapers. Certainly the weak-minded boobs (who are incapable or critical thinking) are always eager to accept that the media is omnipotent and omnipresent.

Why doesn't the media conduct a professional journalism approach to this story by looking at the absurdity of what this judge is doing, and the implications of
this case to religious freedom in general. Why don't they interview the children and ask them if they would like to be returned to their home and mothers, or to be placed in a foster home with people whose main motivations are mercenary(collecting payments from the state). As I've said in prior posts, I've never met a succesful or well adjusted person raised as a foster child. After their 18th birthday they are put out on their own...no college fund, no support group. Also, if you don't think many of those girls ,if placed in foster homes, will never end up pregnant (or will not engage in sexual activity as underage teens) then you just don't live in the real world. The only "underage"sex those girls engage in living within that compound is as a wife to a man committed to provide for her and her children.

Contrast this with all the sexually active underage teens who are giving birth out of wedlock. For examply, yesterday, on the Steve Wilcos TV show he profiled a young girl who had given birth to 3 kids. She gave all kinds of excuses why she was unable to take care of her infants...leaving them with whatever relative she could find to take care of them. The last relative did sexually abuse the kids for real. The father was on the show shouting that he didn't give a damn about those kids or that "bitch". At the time social services did rescue those children they were all but starving. The house was filty with animal feces all over the floor. The baby had a little cool-aid in the bottle. The older kids had been eating the animal feces off the floor. Oh yeah, judge, those mormon girls are being deprived of a lot of the pleasures of modern life. They don't get a chance to smoke pot or watch porn on TV. And, they are not able to appreciate "diversity"from other races. They could get to hang with blacks, and find out why they are being called a "ho" ( if they don't put out to the "brothers"). Also, be sure and watch the Jerry Springer show to further appreciate the lifestyles of teens living outside of a religious compound.

Of course, we have moved into a period of near hysteria about relationships between mature men and legally defined "under age" females. The word
"pedophile" has become equally as an insult as the word "racist". Political correctness and hypocrisy pervades the airwaves in this country on such subject matters. No exceptions are tolerated. Are any of you aware that Jesus was born out of a pedophile marriage? Research shows that Jewish customs in biblical times reflected that girls got "bethothed" before marriages. Those betrothals were equally as binding as the marriage ceremony. It usually preceded marriage by about six months. Jewish law permitted betrothals of females at the age of 121/2 years of age. At the time Mary became betrothed to Joseph her age was not exactly known. Joseph (who was of the house of David) is usually accepted to have been in his 40's. So, at the time of Mary's marriage to Joseph, most scholars conclude she was probably 13 years old. Mary's mention in the bible during the time of Jesus's ministry reflects that her life span was due to her young age at the time of the "immaculate conception". Joseph was not mentioned in the bible during his ministry since life expectancy for a male at that time was around 46 years of age.

A very critical aspect of the invasion of that mormon community, and the illegal seizure of those kids, concerns the legal precedent it will set if that bitch on the bench prevails in this travesty of justice. It would mortally wound the constitutional protections and guarantees which the framers had sought to give us. It should be understood by all citizens that government will always seek to overeach in it's desire to regiment, regulate, and control the people. Such is the nature of the beast. Toward that purpose, government is forever seeking to enact laws, rules, ordinances, etc. All such laws are those which attempt to tell the people what they can NOT do. It is only the law, as set forth in the Bill of Rights/Constitution, that guarantees citizens the rights and freedoms as to what they have a right to do.Thus, if government does pass a law or renders a judgements that infringes on those Constitutional freedoms and rights, it will be overturned and struck down. That megalomaniac judge violated both statutory law(due process) as well as constitutional law.

There are certain obvious legal concepts that require no discussion since they have been well decided and accepted over the years. For example, one is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, after having had a fair and impartial trial. But that judge has taken actions against INDIVIDUALS of that sect as though some sort of guilt has already been established by virtue of their being a member of that sect. Furthermore, she would not be qualified to preside over any such trial because of the prejudice and bias she has shown to their religious beliefs and practices. It is simply guilt by association. The fact that one (or more) priests sexually abused little boys does not make all priests guilty. We do not charge all teachers as being guilty of sexual abuse because one(or more) teachers were proven guilty of such abuse.That judge cannot take all of the children away from their parents by simply alleging she is doing so for their protection. Who made her God? Let the state prove by a preponderance of the evidence that those children were being neglected, abandoned, physically beaten (abused), or deprived of food,clothing or shelter. Underage sex is, by law, statutory "rape"; but underage marriage is not "rape"...no matter how you spin it.

If this judicial tyrany is allowed to set a precedent, then we open the door to government invading the Amish-Mennonites societies (sects)...many of whom have less exposure to the "outside world" than does that mormon sect. Many have no modern conveniences (horse and horse and buggy
for transportation;no telephones,etc). Many don't even have electricity. The following is from research off the internet:

"The most important Amish doctrine is obedience and yielding to God, the church and others. Parents teach children to be obediant and respectful and yield to the higher purpose of the family and Amish community. Gentleness and peace are valued over violence and agression. The second major doctrine is separation from the outside world. Since there is "evil" and "sinners" in the outside world, the amish try to protect their membership by separating themselves from the rest of the world. To keep the community together and their lives simple, amish leaders decided to outlaw automobiles and use horses for farmwork and transportation. Children are nurtured by all members of the family and create bonds with their numerous relatives".

[When there are allegations that young girls are "forced" into marriage with older men, such "force" is most likely to have been simply a matter of having been taught (like the amish) to be obedient to the church. And, if you want to call that "conditioning" then same can be said of any religion - whose members follow the teachings and tenents of their church/religion. The reason we have freedom of religion is that one denomination does not have the right to impose their beliefs ,and/or standards, on another religious group (or secular group for that matter.)]

Additionally, there are orthodox jewish communities(mainly hasidic) that also have removed themselves from the outside world and have their own code of morality. Many of them permit, and/or encourage, legally defined "underage marriages. The wives are taught that procreation is a primary duty of a wife. Also, many of the men marry the girls through "arranged" marriages...or after using the services of a marriage broker. "Arranged"marriages are quite common in many other cultures - especially in India and in moslem countries. Shouldn't officials in those localities follow the precedent set by the megalomaniac to, likewise, invade those communities and also take their children away from those groups?

But, then, the big question is: Are we going to continue to pass and enforce laws that are more intended to force citizens to conform to government's view of morality, rather than concentrate on passing laws that protect out borders;control wasteful government spending;reform trade policies that place our country at a competitive disadvantage; overhaul our public education system; fix medicare by reforming our health care system; stop the flood of illegal aliens who soak up social services reserved for citizens; stop government from raiding the social security trust fund; balance the budget; reform the IRS and establish a flat tax system; derail plans to build the NAFTA superhighway...with the US agreeing to pay for our portion of that highway, in addition paying for Mexico's portion of the highway; move the UN out of the US...or, at least, stop paying a disproportionate amount of their budget to finance their anti-american programs and rhetoric,and; AND GET OUR YOUNG MEN THE HELLOUT OF IRAQ NOW...and just let those moslems self-destruct.

THE FINAL SOLUTION

Many scientists, involved in genetic research, will admit that the initial body of work in this field can be traced back to the nazi government in Germany during the 1940s. Much of the motivation for that research can be attributed to Hitler and his henchmen seeking to prove that germans were a genetically superior master race. For a long period after the war, any work in genetics was looked upon with suspicion (as though it might be a continuation of trying to prove one race superior to another race).

But with the breakthrough of the human genome project, in which we discovered the DNA matrix, and could begin to see where DNA markers could be a basis for finding solutions to diseases, and pre-natal testing could be used to determine whether or not a fetus had markers that predisposed it to diseases (that might
justify abortion) we began to look at genetics in a much more positive light.

But nobody should ever forget the absolute horrors that nazi scientists, such as Dr Josef Mengele and others, used in carrying out their research. They used Jews,gypsies, Jehovah Witnesses and other imprisoned populations to conduct experiments which amounted to nothing less than being tortured to death. Mengele had a particular facination with twins. He subjected them to freezing of limbs, burnings of limbs and amputating of body parts to measure pain endurance. None of those experiments were used with any form of anesthesia. When the screaming became too loud, Dr Mengele would shove gags in their mouths.

Mengele's DNA experiments degenerated into a program for testing of Germans toward compeling many Germans ,thought to be inferior, to submit to sterilization. It is reported that two million germans were forcibly sterilized - most between 15 to 17 years of age. As we know, the nazis finally moved on to mass murder of those who were shipped to the death camps. This was known as THE FINAL SOLUTION.

Today, the only reservations we have with genetics and DNA testing is whether or not society will began to use DNA as a form of discrimination. Issues such as using DNA for hiring decisions, refusing to extend insurance to those with markers for diseases, etc. The select committee report on human genetics of The Nuffield Council on Bioethics stated that misuse of genetic information, related to an individual's right to privacy, and confidentiality of medical information, should be made a criminal and civil offense. A movie that reflects how a future society would use DNA to determine which DNA classification gets the opportunities and better jobs while those with questionable markers are relegated to janitor jobs etc., is called,"A Triumph of The Human Sprit". (A chilling movie)

As above stated, DNA testing can be used for positive purposes. For example, in Dallas County, Texas we are releasing one prison inmate after another when DNA testing is showing that a great many of the accused could not have committed the rape/murder of a women...for which they have been in prison for 20 years or more. Thankfully, we no longer have Henry Wade as the District Attorney for this county. Though during his long tenure, a number of innocent people were railroaded into prison by a combination of prosecutorial misconduct, and Judges, (like the megalomaniac in the instant case), who failed to insure that trials were "fair" or "impartial".

Also, no one would argue that DNA testing of people who are likely suspects in a crime need to be tested to determine guilt or establish innocence. But, in the present case, where that judge is trying to force compulsory DNA testing of all the members of that sect, simply to engage in a geneological and pedigree witchhunt, is outrageous. If you put a newborn calf, or kid(lamb) out into the herd or flock, it will find its biological mother...and the mother will find it's newborn. The members of that sect know who belongs to who. And, any order from that judge which amounts to constructing a family tree is wholly irrelevant....and simply is an unconstitutional invasion of privacy. The primary issue is that those children should never have been taken from their families in the first place. Even if one of the women left the sect and abandoned her child to be raised by another women (stepmother or second wife if that makes you happy) that women should also be entitled to have the custody of that child restored to her. All of this DNA hoopla is only a cover and stall by that judge to have the children dispersed across the state, and out of that court's jurisdiction. Leading those mothers to believe that by complying with DNA testing they would get their chilren back is simply a cruel hoax...and one more example of lies which those officials have been using throughout this case. The attorneys for that sect ought to tell those men to refuse to cooperated with any such order for DNA testing... since it is likely this vicious judge might use such tests in an attempt to prosecute the husbands for statutory rape.

That judge has once again raised the spector of fear and suspicion regarding the use of DNA tests by government.Thanks to her, Texas might be easily be regarded as the heir to another FINAL SOLUTION. Shades of Nazi Germany. Seig Heil, judge.
www.truetells.blogspot.com
Conventionality is not morality
Self-righteousness in not religion
(author unknown)

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