Thursday, May 29, 2008

Court filings all in; TX Supreme Court set to decide YFZ Ranch custody battles

Thanks to commenter KBP and others for pointing out that the following documents were filed with the Supreme Court of Texas regarding the Great Eldorado Polygamist Roundup:
TRLA's response to the Writ
and, better late than never:
BRIEF OF AMICI CURIAE, American Civil Liberties Union & American Civil Liberties Union of Texas, IN OPPOSITION TO RELATOR’S PETITION FOR MANDAMUS
Also, for reference, here's the state's filing with the Supreme Court and the Third Court ruling they're appealing.

The Supremes could now make their decision at any time. Though perhaps I'm engaged in wishful thinking, I'd put the odds at about 6-5 in favor of rejecting the state's writ of mandamus - perhaps even a little better than that, but with a lot of room for error.

What's your prediction on the outcome? What will happen if the state wins its appeal? What will happen if they lose?


Anonymous said...

I am inclined to see the possibility of federal appeals coming out of this case as potentially problematic for both the State & the Courts of Texas. That there are judicial & legislative issues that Texas would rather not be dragged into the federal purview. If that is accurate, then SCOTX may be more inclined to 'ratchet down' the FLDS affair by sending the kids back.

I read the Response submitted by the mothers' lawyers, and it devotes extensive effort to minimizing the flight-risk argument, which may be what SCOTX needed to see (in the Response).

Hugh McBryde said...

I say the CPS wins. I don't think they should in a legal or moral sense but I think they win.

Here's hoping I am wrong but I think the issue is too politically charged and they will go with public opinion which still is against the FLDS.

I think the Supremes believe if CPS is allowed to keep digging, they will find something and bail them out of what would have to be a bad decision on their part.

Ultimately I think what comes out of this will be reversed, at some level, but much later.

Anonymous said...


Page 20 :

"Legislators may not devise mechanisms, overt or disguised, designed to persecute or oppress a religion or its practices."

Don said...

If there's some way they can do some kind of compromise, I think they will. Can they deny the writ, and still give CPS some oversight of all the kids, allow them to impose their conditions etc? If SCOT can weasel, appease Perry, appease CPS, and FLDS and not actually make a clear up and down ruling on the writ. that's what I would think they would do. If it's just up or down, I think CPS wins. (Politics and that's all)

Anonymous said...

IF the Supreme Court of Texas refuses to overturn the 3rd Court of Appeals decision, can CPS delay the return of the children further with an appeal to the Federal Courts?

kbp said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
kbp said...

Your odds should total to 9.

Are there some extra votes I do not know about?


kbp said...

I see many giving the CPS close to even odds or better.

It would have to be a totally political move to grant the writ, IMO.

If that happens, I can't wait to see how they re-define "household".

kbp said...

Another is filed!

Barbara J. Elias-Perciful doesn't like what the 3rd did!

Anonymous said...

Last week, a baptist 'minister' from Lakewood Church was arrested for attempted sex with a 13-year-old. We know the TX baptist ran the shelters (at request and MOA of Rick Perry)--and the Baptist Child and Family Services has taken FLDS into its foster care/adoption system. We know TX 'outsources' these services to 'contractors'---i.e.: baptists' orgs. comes out...

CASA volunteer molests up to 20 kids---young as age 3--from the American Statesman and World Net Daily reporting.

Billy Dan Carroll 53

‘Police have seized video tapes of court-appointed advocate molesting as many as 20 children. He is being charged with aggravated sexual assault of an 8-year-old girl under his care earlier this month.

Billy Dan Carroll, a 53-year-old entrepreneur and founder of a court-reporting firm, filmed himself having sex with several kids between the ages of 3 and 15, the Austin American Statesman reported.

“We don’t know where it is going to end up, how many victims we may end up with,” Austin police Sgt. Brian Loyd said.’

Court-Appointed Special Advocates, or CASAs, work with Child Protective Services and assist in monitoring and mentoring youth. Some are appointed guardian ad litem through court programs.

‘Police have said Carroll served as a court-appointed special advocate for the 8-year-old through volunteering for Court Appointed Special Advocates of Travis County, Texas.

CASA Executive Director Laura Wolf said Wednesday that the agency could not release Carroll’s volunteer application or background information because of confidentiality rules.

According to an agency rule sheet, which volunteers are required to sign, volunteers are prohibited from “taking the child to their home or to the home of the advocate’s personal friends or family.”

Wolf said she thinks such rule violations would be reported by the child, foster parents, parents or caseworker, but that the agency has no other way of enforcing it.

“I am not saying it could never happen, but it certainly is not something that I think would happen often,” Wolf said. ‘

How does this relate to FLDS children?

‘The folks at Court Appointed Special Advocates of the South Plains tell NewsChannel 11 that their case workers are balancing their local cases with trips to San Angelo…”I’m glad that these kids (FLDS) are getting the help that they need, but it is a huge strain on the system which was already over burdened as it was,” Amy Paiva, Executive Director for CASA of the South Plains said. She says local case workers are going to San Angelo on a regular basis.’

* * *

Assuredly, aside from the constitutional violations...who in their right mind would believe the FLDS children safe in state custody?

Anonymous said...

The facts are that the children are less safe in State Custody!

The State has a far worse record of child abuse than the FLDS.

Anonymous said...

If the state wins its appeal, there isn't a question that the parents will fight to the Federal Cort's, they've told me that personally.

As for the decision,

The Court will make a Per Curiam ruling.

It's a no brainer, walthers blew it royally and the CPS got greedy.

Bill Medvecky

Hugh McBryde said...

I would agree that if the decision were made on the merits, it's a "no brainer." The decision writes itself and it is written in unqualified fashion in favor of the FLDS.

The big however here is that I am sure that the justices believe if the investigation is allowed to continue, not unlike the belief that if the votes were allowed to be recounted and recounted and recounted in Florida in 2000, that evidence will be found.

In other words the Justices think that there will be the proverbial 53 year old man found to be bending over a helpless coerced little girl.

Since they think that, they will rule in favor of CPS.

Headmistress, zookeeper said...

Wow. Elias-Percival is mad. She says the 3rd ignored the obvious evidence of the 20 females who had been pregnant as minors:
" 5. Adult
men impregnating minor children is sexual abuse per se, and mothers “who fail to make a
reasonable effort to prevent sexual conduct harmful to a child” are equally culpable under
the law despite innocent looks and prairie dresses. 261.001 (F)."

Anonymous said...

Don't worry about the mule going blind, just keep loading the wagon.

It is unbelievable that all of these agencies, support groups, subcontractors, and court systems keep talking about "an already overcrowded system", and not be able to distance themselves from the excessive workload to determine where the source of the excessive workload is originating - CPS.

kbp said...

I would not be terribly surprised if a majority at SCOT wants to keep the kids longer, persuading them to help reveal of fabricate a crime, I'm just lost how SCOT will be able to put the "SINGLE HOUSEHOLD" back together again!

The Humpty Dumpty ruling!

Headmistress, zookeeper said...

More from Barbara:
The media has provided extensive coverage of the pain to all involved and the trauma
children suffer when they are removed from their home. Removal, however, is the lesser
of two evils when the alternative is a continuing danger of sexual abuse. Typically, there
is no media coverage of the horrific acts sexual predators commit against children.
Amicus dares to say that if the media showed the actual events of adult males demanding
sex with eleven year old girls, there would be no one questioning the graphic danger of
returning these children to their home at this time.

But she just got done talking about the 20 girls from 13-17, including the 5 current minor mothers who are from 16-17 (she might have said 15, but I'm pretty sure it's 16)- and suddenly jumps in with the 11 year old and issues not in evidence-
Is this typical?
I'm not a legal type, but this seems shrill.

Anonymous said...

From the Brief of Amicus Curiae, Barbara J. Elias-Perciful holds a vested interest in this case. Should the SCOTX rule in favor of the 3rd (and the FLDS), Mrs. Elias-Perciful might not have anything left to teach. Perhaps the results of this case are due to her prior teachings.

She trained them, they did what she said, they're losing - She's mad.

Kathy G said...

News coming in right now.

Anonymous said...

thanks scotx!

Pinkycatcher said...

SCOT Rules in favor of FLDS!

Anonymous said...

AUSTIN, Texas -- The Texas Supreme Court has ruled that polygamist sect children should be returned to their parents.

Parents and lawyers have been anxiously awaiting a ruling from the high court since a lower appeals court said child welfare officials were wrong to take the more than 400 children from their parents.

FLDS update: Texas Supreme Court rules against state in taking of children
By Brooke Adams
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 05/29/2008 03:08:10 PM MDT
SAN ANGELO, Texas - The Texas Supreme Court today turned down the state's request to overturn an lower court's ruling that that hundreds of FLDS children have been taken into state custody improperly.

Pinkycatcher said...

Wow, I'm watching CNN Headline News right now, and they're still spouting lies, and still against the FLDS. The reporting on here is amazingly biased, what's sad is the former prosecuter they have commenting on there is the least combative against the FLDS.

Anonymous said...

Welp, too bad y'all didn't take my 'writ denied' odds.

I'm surprised they decided to go on the record with it.

Anonymous said...

The supreme court Ruled

Anonymous said...

Like I said this afternoon, per curiam decision.

It was a slam dunk from the beginning and the fact that these children were all dragged therough the mud for nothing was disgusting from the start.

Those who stood by and said nothing just because a charge of child abuse was made need to rethink their mindset.

CPS is an agency in Texas that is totally out of control, and thanks to these childrens suffering, maybe it will be addressed by our "Good citizens" Obviousely, those living in Eldorado and San Angelo need not apply.

Bill Medvecky
freethe fldschildren

Anonymous said...

If the celebratory beer drinkin is going to be in Austin this weekend, I wanna be there and meet some of you people.

kbp said...

If someone wanted to bet a beer and I offered 2/1 on it, does that mean I only get half a beer?


Pinkycatcher said...

Haha, I would be half tempted to go down to Austin for a beer on this. CNN HLN is still reporting against the FLDS, they're pulling up Flora, and nearly all their callers and the reporter is just railing on it. And one caller pulled a "if we save one child from these people it's worth it" don't worry, another 150 or so will be abused in foster care.

Mark said...

Texas Supremes Say YZR Children Should be Returned to Parents

kbp said...

Just for humor!

The sum of CPS Crew's reason's it's a "single household" in their writ:

Since Voss had testified "one big family, one large community... same beliefs..." all mothers, brothers and sisters... "living under an umbrella of belief...", so she concluded "the ranch is considered one large home..."

Gritsforbreakfast said...

Hey folks, fyi I just posted links to news accounts and the SCOTX opinion here.

kbp said...

In dissenting three Supreme Court justices said they do not agree fully with the Third Court's finding that Walther abused her discretion in ruling April 18 the state could maintain custody of the children, but agreed that the state has failed to present evidence of "danger to the physical health or safety" to the children.

Instead, Justice Harriet O'Neill wrote, Walther was right to award custody of teenage girls to the state, but should have given the rest of the children back to their parents.

I guessed that is how O'Neill would vote.

This reporter tells us what "O'Neill wrote", so I'd like to see what was wrote.

Anonymous said...

My concern over the erosion of American rights library-
People will be leaving America after martial law is declared (if they pull another 911) and if ever it is then called off because we will see the danger of living in the USA- the ones which can escape and get away in boats. It wont be against Jews as it was in Germany, but it will be against anybody for liberty and freedom- what 6 of my ancestors fought- TYRANNY of the Crown. New world order which the Bishes promote.

It will be dictatorship as in Germany all over again if the neocons gets away with it. Cheney was prevented Sept 14, 2007 from pulling another 911. Three brave officers at Barksdale AFB LA blew the whistle on the illegally transported nuclear warheads. it was reported by CNN London but not that the pilot of the plane and 5 others were murdered within a wekk of the flight on August 30. Minot is a "rogue base" where Blackwater hangs out?

Tell your boys to find a good place to hide their guns- cause they will come to take them if the neocons can get martial law declared.

I am including this click-library for you- .... here is a general list of films which are my favourites (some I already shared with you) concerning our Constitution and the background to the war and the upcoming thought crime bill-S 1959 which will be used to squelch dissent on the internet. Glenn Beck of CNN Headline News even though he is a professed Libertarian has equated Ron Paul supporters with Timothy McVeigh, and he has indicated that we are at least part of the "enemy within"; that we may be terrorists in the making. The fear-whip was frothy and thick. He warned Americans about our dangerous Ron Paul Revolution, and seemed to postulate that we were trying to undermine and destroy America. Ron Paul is for a return of the Constitution, striking down the 800 presidential directives and orders, striking down the Patriots Act, as well as the Military Commissions Act and for immediate withdrawal from Iraq. Ron Paul calls for dismantling of too many government agencies and interference with out lives and liberties. In Washington they are afraid of him. he has kept in the race to influence the public and get the word out about what is going on in this country.

These type of people who support everything which is against our Bill of Rights would be having us rounded up during Martial law or even under the new bill HR 1955 or S 1959. Write you senator to vote NAY- it has been dubbed the THOUGHT CRIME BILL
Closing down an open society and subverting the rule of law thru Marshall law
President Bush's post-terror attack martial law plan is so shocking that even sitting members of Congress and Homeland Security officials are barred from viewing it, another example of executive 'ueber alles' (German for above all) and a chilling portent of what is to come.

Here is full length documentary about the federal reserve which was founded in 1913- and since then they and their owners have been shaping America. They created the bank runs as well as the crash of 1928. Ron Paul wants to separate us from them.
Freedom to Fascism by Aaron Russo

Alex Jones radio-interview with Stanley Hilton, former friend of the neocons

New American Century written among others by Jeb Bush and Richard Cheney - This professor in Ottawa University gives a wonderful long lecture starting with his knowledge of the New American Century- Dr. Michel Chossudovsky
New American Century geo-political lecture

Ron Paul is a real republican Patriot and not a neocon- being a neocon is not being conservative- it is fascism.
HR 1955 and S 1959 Thought Crime Bill
The only people who know what this bill means to internet freedoms and freedoms to criticize the government voted Nay to the Thought Crime Bill:
Nay CA-46 Rohrabacher, Dana [R]
Nay AZ-6 Flake, Jeff [R]
Nay TN-2 Duncan, John [R]
Nay OH-10 Kucinich, Dennis [D]
Nay IL-12 Costello, Jerry [D]
Nay HI-1 Abercrombie, Neil [D]

JFK's Dissenters are Silenced speech

proof already in 2006 people who wrote books or columns critical of Bush are on the No Fly list. How much do you bet that if he declares martial law they all of those people will be rounded up? First come the critics and the senators against him- the first night, then the professors and lawyers (it wont matter what religion), then come the gays and lesbians, then come the religious people- probably the Mormons first.....remind you of sometime long ago?
naomi Wolf writes about HomelandSecurityWatchlist

Radio Free Texas

writer Naomi Wolf gives a lecture called The End of America

Ron Paul a Patriot of our time

Loose Change 2nd edition recut introduction to why the official story of 911 does not make any sense

Loose Change Final Cut all details The Bush administration wants to ban Loose Change. This is a threat to anyone believing him. Considering that the Ok City bombing has new evidence to support the theory that the FBI was behind it in order to institute new laws taking away Constitutional rights which has been a long term goal in place in the National Security Agency since Bush Sr. was president..that has the Shadow Government which Kennedy warned us against in 1963, as well as Bill Moyers in 1987.
f you listen to this talk by Morgan Reynolds who was a Bush appointee - he names the top list of guilty in the government and he advocates arrests. But he does say if we dont make these arrests by 2011, we never get our country back and jealthy. The inert American public is the problem because they dont want to find the monster in the closet. An immediate goal is to fend off another 911 by talking to each other and joining - look for "Morgan Reynold" here-

Morgan Reynolds- on Bush come out with your hands up

2 hour movie in English with subtitles in German-what happened in Chile and El Salvador and Nicaragua