Tuesday, May 13, 2008

YFZ kids abused and neglected under CPS care

I've not kept close track lately of the goings on with the ever changing number of "kids" seized from the YFZ Ranch in Eldorado, but wanted to round up recent links and sources that are slowly beginning fill out the picture.

For starters, it's becoming clear other states don't see Texas' child seizure action as a model. The Utah Attorney General is resisting calls to mess with polygamists, declaring “I don’t care how many talking heads you see on cable television shows that tell us that we need to cowboy-up and be like Texas. We don’t believe that’s the answer,” said Utah AG Mark Shurtleff. (Further detailing Utah's approach, a law professor explained in an informative column why CPS should begin now to fulfill its statutory obligation to reunite children who weren't abused with their families.)

Shurtleff told a crowd last week, according to The New York Times, that Utah wants to identify relatives who might provide foster homes if Texas takes these kids long term:
Utah’s attorney general, Mark L. Shurtleff, sat before a room of perhaps 400 people, most of them fundamentalist polygamists, at a town hall meeting here on Thursday night. He asked for a show of hands. How many people, he wanted to know, were related to the children who were seized last month in a raid in Texas in an investigation of possible marriage and abuse of child brides?

Scores of hands shot up. Then Mr. Shurtleff asked his follow-up: How many of you would be willing to take those children into your homes? Without a moment’s hesitation, the same hands rose.

“We think it would be wonderful if that were to happen, and we’re going to continue to try to encourage that,” Mr. Shurtleff said, as the room exploded with applause.
I wonder what Texas CPS' reaction will be to that idea? Since their legal theory is that fundamentalist Mormons' religion is an inherent threat to children, they may fight it, but it'd sure be a lot better for the kids to wind up with relatives instead of strangers.

On the legal front, although child by child court proceedings begin next week (and I've not made time yet to read the relevant court filings), one family with a newborn convinced a judge to listen to their pleas a little earlier, reported the Dallas News:
AUSTIN – Child Protective Services tried to whisk a newborn and his mother, in state custody as a minor after being removed from a polygamist sect's ranch, to a different city within hours of childbirth on Monday.

But her husband, saying his wife is 22 and should never have been taken into state custody with the ranch's children last month, rushed to court and prevented it.

Because CPS had no foster care placement in Travis County that was suitable for the newborn, the mother and child were poised to spend the night in a CPS office, a lawyer for the husband said. ...

State District Judge Orlinda Naranjo issued an injunction that temporarily halted CPS' plan to move the mother, the newborn and the couple's two other children, ages 2 and 3, to San Antonio within hours of the delivery at an Austin birthing center.

The judge said the mother and the three youngsters will remain in Travis County until after a hearing Thursday on Mr. Jessop's request that another district judge in Austin, Darlene Byrne, order his wife and children released from state care.

Of course, the reason some older women claimed to be minors at one point, the state well knows, is that CPS told them that was the only way they'd be allowed to stay with their children, in this case a 2 and 3 year old. According to her lawyer, as of last night Mrs. Jessop was staying with her newborn "in the offices of CPS because they don't have anywhere else to put her."

Who seriously contends this woman and her newborn are possibly better off sleeping in CPS' foyer in Austin instead of back home with her (monogamous) husband? It's difficult to understand what the state thinks its accomplishing with such shenanigans. Aren't there any actual abuse cases in Texas to worry about?

Indeed, it's becoming clear that these kids are being abused and neglected worse under CPS' care than they were at the YFZ Ranch. Reports the Salt Lake Tribune, kids have endured:
Children living in crowded quarters that led to upper respiratory illnesses. Youngsters plagued with diarrhea from unhealthy foods they usually did not eat. Distressed mothers enduring widespread rudeness - such as flashlights shined in their faces as they tried to sleep.

Mental health professionals who helped care for FLDS women and children in the weeks after an April raid on the YFZ Ranch describe conditions and treatment they perceived as harsh and unnecessary.

"Never in all my life, and I am one of the older ladies, have I been so ashamed of being a Texan and seeing what and how our government agencies treat people," wrote one employee of Hill Country Community Mental Health and Mental Retardation Center in an unsigned statement.

Texas contracts with Hill Country to provide mental health services during disasters. Staff members met with the center's board of trustees last week, leaving them "spellbound." The board has gathered nine written statements critical of Child Protective Services.

Chairman John Kight said he wants state legislators and the governor to hear the employees' stories. "You have damaged these children for their lives," he said. "This is an agency that looks like it's gone out of control."
The tales from these mental health workers included one of the most sad, poignant images yet to emerge from this debacle, describing:
A boy estimated at age 3 walked along a row of cots asking for someone to rock him after he was separated from his mother, one employee wrote. Two CPS worker trailed the youngster taking notes but not helping him. His brother, age 8, eventually took the child into his arms and sat with him in a rocking chair.

"That little boy will always be in my mind," the employee wrote. "How can a beautiful, healthy child be taken from a healthy, loving home and forced into a situation like that, right here in America, right here in Texas?"
How, indeed? Remember, this is supposedly justified on the theory that 30-40 years from now this 3-year old boy "may" become a sexual predator.

My God, Texas ... what in heaven's name have we done? And how long before Texans of good conscience find the courage and means to stop it?

UPDATE: From the Salt Lake Tribune, here are links to the letters from MHMR workers:
"The floor was literally slick with tears ..."
Here are links to letters written by staff members from the Hill Country Community Mental Health-Mental Retardation Center, which provided assistance to FLDS women and children in San Angelo shelters in April. They are critical of conditions in the shelters and how child welfare workers treated the women and children.

  • "This was a travesty."
  • "This situation was a tragedy."
  • "It was heartwrenching."
  • "Our roles bacame... confidant and a broker."
  • "That is a very good question."
  • "Ashamed of being a Texan."
  • "I often felt helpless."
  • "Vast amounts of hypocrisy."
  • "Even to be an observer was difficult."
  • "This incident... is not what America or Texas stands for."
  • "Even the simplest request was discounted."

    Melanie said...

    I've read the news articles on Mrs. Jessop giving birth and the authorities trying to move them in the middle of the night, but my question is - why were they being moved at all? Why aren't they in the hospital? Unless she doesn't want to stay in the hospital (which may well be, considering their "back to basics" approach to living and medicine) they should be in the hospital for at least 2 days following birth. Has anyone seen the answer to this?

    Anonymous said...


    I understand your question.

    Most physicians would want to monitor the newborn for a day or two (check for first BM, monitor glucose) before releasing it.

    I requested early release once but the physician would only do it if I agreed to have a nurse come to my home and do health checks in the following days. I'm pretty sure he would have said no had I said that I was gonig to be involved in long distance travel instead of resting.

    I want these physicians to be required to testify.

    It was curious to me that in one report on the dehydrated toddler that the attending physician told CPS that he was insisting the mother be present.

    If a physician felt that CPS was abusive or neglectful there is no one for him to report it to. We need to hear from these doctors, but because of privacy laws they won't be speaking. There is no one for them to report the abuse to, and there is no way they can discuss it with the media either because of the privacy laws.

    Anonymous said...

    Anon. The doctors you refer to MUST report child abuse and neglect. They can report it to local law enforcement, or to CPS, itself. If they are not in the jurisdiction of Judge Walther, a report to law enforcement might get somewhere.

    Some of the reports we've seen about bad health problems developing in some of the kids may be sufficient to support a report of child abuse. I say may, because I'm reluctant to grant to the media the presumption that their reports are accurate. But if those reports are accurate, then I hope someone will report abusive and/or neglectful behavior by CPS employees to law enforcement and to CPS. Let us see what happens then. We should not fall into the trap of assuming that the State of Texas can legitimize child abuse and neglect.

    By The Way, Grits. Do you know if there were ever any reports of child abuse to CPS arising out of the behavior of TYC employees? If so, what became of those reports; were they investigated by CPS?

    kbp said...

    CPS stopped in effort to remove baby, his mother
    "...The judge said the mother and the three youngsters will remain in Travis County until after a hearing Thursday on Mr. Jessop's request that another district judge in Austin, Darlene Byrne, order his wife and children released from state care."

    Another polygamist sect mother in custody gives birth
    This article is completely absent details on what CPS tried to do. It has become quite obvious that Ms. Langford's reporting has it's own little metanarrative to share, but she's been limited to the "disputed teens lied to us" claim of late. I'm sure she'll be the first to share with us all the forged documents those liars used to TRY and prove they were adults!

    Second sect baby born into Texas state custody
    "State officials... said they were trying to determine her true age."

    "CPS spokesman Patrick Crimmins... said officials were reviewing documentation for those who claim they are of legal age."

    That makes all of us feel better, knowing the state is trying here (LOL!!). Anyone seen reports on how they are "trying"?

    "It's early in the game..."
    Allison Palmer, 1st ADA

    I wish all comment strings had "signature" tools. I'd use this quote.

    Also posted at last string of comments. Sometimes Grits popping in with new posts leave me feeling like I missed the bus!

    Headmistress, zookeeper said...
    This comment has been removed by the author.
    Kathy G said...

    I'm positive a convicted criminal in prison would have been made more comfortable than this new mother and her baby. If this is how Texas treats the people that they "rescue", I hope I never, ever need their brand of "help"!!

    Headmistress, zookeeper said...

    I've read that they had no suitable facilities for a newborn, but since they knew Mrs. Jessop was pregnant before they moved her there, that seems weak to me.
    I've also read there was an outbreak of chicken pox at the shelter where she was, so not returning her there is reasonable.
    Making her sleep on an air mattress on the floor within hours of giving birth (shoot, within six weeks of giving birth) is unconscionably inhumane and cruel.

    (note: edited and reposted because I find the addition of a superfluous e to 'her' too humiliating to leave as it stands- especially since I did it twice).

    kbp said...

    Humor of the news at times!

    What history should teach us

    "I don't think this will be another Short Creek,"
    Rep. Harvey Hilderbran

    Doing The Same Thing And Expecting A Different Outcome

    Well, not exactly the same with the speed of digital news today.

    "It's early in the GAME..."
    Allison Palmer, 1st ADA

    Anonymous said...

    Kids spend the night in CPS offices all the time. Especially newborns, because the requirement to take a newborn doesn't mean a place with a crib. A newborn must be registered separately with CVS, and takes a minimum of 3-5 days to place. This is completely normal, yet Grits blows this up like its the end of the world. THIS HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.

    As to a sad story about a 3 year old walking around . . . really? I'm supposed to feel bad because a 3 year old is looking for his mother in a controlled environment? I must be one heartless *******, because I don't. I also love the leaps of imagination made by this employee, including, "healthy, loving home" (she has no knowledge of the situation whatsoever, she's just assuming away).

    As to illness, there was one outbreak of chicken pox that would have happened at the Ranch anyways. Any type of food change results in gastro discomfort untilt he body adjusts to the new food type. CVS and foster employees are bending over backwards to feed these childrens specific types of food, but they won't eat it . . . they'll only eat pizza, burgers, everything they've never been able to eat (I shouldn't say all, but a lot are, particularly the younger ones). If I go to Italy, the same thing happens. Once again Grits makes no mention as to what types of food they are eating, merely abstracting it away and calling it "unhealthy". Grits makes the same assumptions positively that he so vehemently rails about CPS making in a negative since. Who is more blind?

    FYI - Utah's AG is a complete douche. The unwritten story right now is that an estimated 500 males have fled the YFZ ranch for fear of prosecution . . . they are headed all to Utah. Utah's AG has already made public that he will not extradite under any charge less than either sexual or physical abuse of a child. Polygamy, child endangerment, child mistreatment . . . nope, Utah's AG won't be extraditing anyone.

    I find it humerous that these "loving families" that Grits keep proclaiming have such a great family unit that the fathers aren't even in the state anymore.

    Gritsforbreakfast said...

    Jeff, if there were 500 males at the ranch besides the kids who were seized, they must have been tipped off and fled before the raid, because authorities didn't find nearly that many men there.

    Or, perhaps you're just making it up? That's my guess. Many of your past "inside" scoops frankly haven't panned out yet.

    As for newborns languishing in CPS offices or scared 3-year olds looking for comfort while CPS caseworkers ignore them, I'm sure it does "happen all the time." CPS does a terrible disservice to most kids in its custody. That's why kids shouldn't be placed with them unless they've been abused or neglected. And by neglected, I mean BESIDES being neglected by CPS.

    Kathy G said...

    Jeff, you seem totally without compassion. It's obvious that you feel nothing but contempt for these people and their children.

    Those experienced mental health workers observed children who were healthy, well-cared for and obviously loved by their mothers, so they rightly assumed the children came from happy homes. The children didn't display the usual signs that they would see in an abused child.

    As for the chicken pox, the children lived in separate HOMES on the ranch, could have been isolated from the others, so many may not have been exposed as they were in the "shelters".

    As for the rest of your "facts" - sources? Just more hearsay.

    Anonymous said...


    As a whole, the behavior exhibited by the CPS/Social Workers is very typical of CPS in general. Anyone with compassion or "good judgement" is often run out of the agency or leaves out of frustration.

    Anonymous said...

    I hope the Judge in Austin rel eases this woman and her 3 children from the control of CPS.

    The Austin Judge is not elected by a bunch of small town gossips looking for dirt! The Austin Judge is also not elected by a bunch of Baptists looking for converts!

    Once a few are released, the remaining children have a chance of release also and it does not have to take 6 months to a year.

    This is not the 1950's and this cannot be "another" Short Creek.

    Anonymous said...

    Anon -

    That's the single funniest thing I've heard in weeks. Your experience with CPS is . . . what? What region did you work in? What division? Caseworker I, II, III, IV, or did you hit supervisor? Did you make or miss the median 18 months the average CPS worker is employed by the state? Did you particpate in the study by the New England Journal of Medicine that found that the job of CPS creates more emotional distress than any other job in America? Did you leave because after earning your masters your pay grade jumped exactly zero dollars to a pathetic 30K per year? Inquiring minds want to know how you've come to such a fantastic generalization.

    As to Grits, I mistyped my 500 . . . it should be 300. 500 is an absurdly large number that is completely false. You can either think I made or mistake or made it up. It was a mistake.

    As to Kathy, you couldn't be further from the truth. I donate 7% of my salary, every month, to the Dallas Children's Advocacy Center, along with donating my own time as well (this isn't where I get my information). My "heartlessness" merely comes from the seemingly lack of perspective so many people seem to have regarding this situation. Reading some of these comments is like listening to a tree hugger extol the virtues of an electric car to the sky, without realizing that A. Creating thse cars is far worse to the environemtn than normal cars because of their nickel requirements and B. if your house uses a coal fired plant, using an electic car puts more greenhouse gas into the sky than a normal combustion engine.

    Anonymous said...

    Jeff, what is your opinion about what the Hill County MHMR staff had to say about things?

    Anonymous said...

    Doran -

    Give me through lunch to read through the documents provided by the newspaper sight. I'll comment when I'm done reading the 15 or pages.

    Anonymous said...

    Jeff: You can claim donations to support the size of your heart, but asking the question, "I'm supposed to feel bad because a 3 year old is looking for his mother in a controlled environment?" demonstrates how small it really is.

    I make it a habit to not respond to trolls, but your blatant disregard for the tender feelings of a little one puts you in the same category as the monsters who refused to comfort him.

    I cannot stand to think of a child suffering without being moved emotionally. And the actions of the boy's older brother shows how much more well-adjusted they both are than you.

    Gritsforbreakfast said...

    Jeff, 300 also doesn't fit with the published data about how many men were at the ranch. Give us something to hang our hats on here besides just your vitriol.

    I don't know whether you made a mistake (or rather, two of them), if you were misinformed yourself, or if you're spreading disinformation. But nothing I've seen suggests that many men were ever there in the first place.

    Nor does anything I've seen suggest the complaining MHMR workers are all "douches," whatever you may think of the Utah AG. Instead, it sounds like the CPS workers were behaving like a bunch of insensitive jerks and got called on it. I have to wonder if comments like yours at 10:48 (complete with obvious misstatements of fact, later retracted - how many times have we seen that?) supply us a taste of the attitudes within the agency that fuel such behavior?

    kbp said...

    Is there a link to the 15 pages" in question?

    Anonymous said...

    KBP on one of the other postings requested a list of Texas legislators and senators on the Human Services Committees. Here they are:

    Texas House - Human Services Committee

    Patrick M Rose (Chair)
    Susan King
    John Davis
    Rob Eissler
    Abel herrero
    Bryan Hughes
    Elliott Naishtat
    Tan Parker
    Paula Pierson

    Texas Senate - Health and Human Services Committee
    Jane Nelson (Chair)
    Bob Deuell
    Kyle Janek
    Robert Nichols
    Dan Patrick
    Eliot Shapleigh
    Carlos Uresti
    Royce West

    This webpage will take you to the Representatives links where you can click to go to their websites and state email addresses:


    This is the same for Senate members:


    Anonymous said...


    Open the original link to the newspaper article. The article merely sums up the letters from the MH people . . . there are links to the letters on that screen.

    Gritsforbreakfast said...

    Just for KBP, who's supplying more good links than I am lately, I put up a new post here.

    kbp said...

    "Can't see the forest for the trees"

    There's always someone around that is able to explain away many of the minor details.

    For one to continuously except these explanations as answers for ALL the specific problems, they'll have to ignore what the totality of all those problems reveal to us.

    Those who are responsible for a pattern of abuse is becoming obvious.

    Anonymous said...

    Grits -

    There were over 1800 people on the ranch. You really can't buy that there were north of 400-500 men there? Do you need a census?

    I didn't make a single comment abou the MH workers yet; not one. Where did I call them out oher than to say she spoke of a situation she had no knowledge of? Yet you sublty accuse me of mocking the MH people when I haven't.

    Anonymous said...

    I like the fact that I've got a moniker (spl?) of "explaining away the details". I mean, what good are actual explanations anyways? Shouldn't we simply view observations in a vacuum and come a decision?

    As to jb, give me a break. Did you let her child sleep in your bed whenever they wanted, or did you tell them no? If you told them no, you emotionally abused them. Good God, please, get some kind of perspective on this. Am I simply trying to buy my way out of hell by giving my time and money? I mean, I'm trusted to supervise children on the weekend . . . I must not have ANY clue what I'm doing.

    Do you weep at the site of a bruised knee? A scraped elbow? I mean, come on. This is just ludicrous. I'll get responses like, "the child's hear was aching for his mother, and that emotionally moved me to almost tears".

    There are bigger fish to fry.

    kbp said...

    Thanks Anon 12:24

    Thanks Jeff, I had this link at the "mysanantonio" as the
    original, but do not see the "15 letters".

    On the "census", I've seen reports of 460+ kids, 200+/- women and 65+ men, along with 1,700 acres.

    Anonymous said...

    KBP -

    You'll notice I didn't write "15 letters". I wrote 15 pages, which is about what the combined letters add up to in length.

    You can choose to believe me or not, but there were well, well over the 725 people you have listed in your census.

    Gritsforbreakfast said...

    Jeff, cite sources please. Nearly every comment you make includes new unverifiable claims that turn out to be wrong, like the 1,800 people on the ranch, whenever anyone goes to verify them. In that your comments strongly resemble CPS' media statements.

    Henceforth, if you don't have an actual source in front of you, nobody wants to hear rumors or lies.

    As for the MHMR workers, it wasn't ME making those complaints about the three year old, etc., it was THEM (I added the links to their statements in this post). You want to blame me for their statements ("Grits makes no mention ...," etc), for some reason, but it's obvious you hold everyone in extreme contempt who criticizes CPS. It's just more PC in the circles you run in, I suppose, for you to blame me than them.

    And to KBP, "acres," "people," what's the difference if Jeff & Friends just going to herd them around the state like cattle?

    In all seriousness, the numbers you cite are the same or close to those I've seen in several published reports - in fact, in every report by anyone who is not Jeff.

    Anonymous said...

    doran williams said...
    Anon. The doctors you refer to MUST report child abuse and neglect. They can report it to local law enforcement, or to CPS, itself.

    I should have been more clear.

    Law inforcement refers them to CPS. If the suspected abuse is happening in the context of a government institution the complaning witness is told that CPS doesn't have jurisdiction.

    If CPS itself is neglecting the care of a child who investigates this? After months of investigation and the damage is already done a court tells CPS, "Don't do that or we'll be forced to tell you not to do that again."

    Anonymous said...

    Grits, son, give me a break.

    You're free to kick me off the website or ask me not to post and I won't, but again, get some perspective. I've stated several times that I have a source that I will in no way post on a public message board. I know my facts are right.

    fyi, asside from two typos I immediately apologized for, which information have I been so "completely wrong about"? How about the time I stated that the majority of girls able to bear children were either pregnant or had been, I was completely ridiculed on this site, then that number turned out to be officially 58%?

    As to the "circles I run in", again, what do you actually know? Nothing, but once again you abstract away an opinion. For all of your willingness to go after my "rumors", you promptly turn back around back assumptions that I'm guessing you think are fine because they based off your own logic.

    Anonymous said...

    I am aghast that Mrs. Jessop was required to sleep on an air mattress with her newborn infant in the CPS office. She should have been in the hospital receiving appropriate medical care.

    I am an RN and have given birth to 5 children of my own. It is cruel and unnecessary to put any young woman and her newborn child into such a situation. If they couldn't return her to the shelter, surely she could have been put in a hospital room. The law requires that women be afforded at least 24 hours of medical care in a hospital after giving birth if they wish it. How on earth was she even released when this is the environment she was going to??

    My God, you guys won't understand this, but the mothers will. It hurts like hell to even WALK a few hours after giving birth, much less get up from a mattress on the freaking FLOOR. Plus being at increased risk for bleeding excessively, the newborn at risk for jaundice and infection (who knows what germs are on the floor in a CPS office!) I'm praying this ADULT mother and her children get the release they so surely deserve this week so they won't have to endure any more ABUSE at the hands of CPS.

    Gritsforbreakfast said...

    Jeff, you say you know your facts are right. All I know is that every single scrap of supposedly "inside" information you've put out in Grits' comments turned out to be demonstrably wrong. Every last one of them. And every time you say, "believe me or not."

    Guess what? I don't.

    SB said...

    Jeff, this is chillingly correct. CPS has become a terrorist organization and individuals are helpless against them. Finally we have some unity. An independent investigation would reveal the misuse of power. Laws must be changed and if a child is in danger the correct thing to do is call 911. Anonymous calls are sometimes made by other CPS workers to create a basis for invading a home and the taking of children.
    I am so damned mad that I would love to be a part of a citizen convoy that rounds up these kids and returns them to their homes. I have said before that there are worse things than sexual abuse. Adults have a problem accepting this but abused kids have known it all along. Deciding whether they prefer being abused by a stranger rather than a loved one is a no-brainer.
    There is no reason why CPS can't continue their investigation with these children in their own homes and attending their own schools.

    Anonymous said...

    "How about the time I stated that the majority of girls able to bear children were either pregnant or had been, I was completely ridiculed on this site, then that number turned out to be officially 58%?"

    That's only if you include the so-called "disputed minors". Take them out of the equation and then what do you have? In fact, take out everyone 17 and older (since 17 is the legal age for sexual consent).

    Anonymous said...

    Jeff Said

    I mean, I'm trusted to supervise children on the weekend . . . I must not have ANY clue what I'm doing.

    I am trusted to supervise children every day on a 24/7 basis. So I don't understand your point.

    Unless your point is that a lack of compassion for a little ones physical and/or emotional well being makes you a better person. In which case, I don't agree, and would not recommend for you to quit your day job in favor of playing weekend baby sitter.

    Anonymous said...

    Lowry -

    A terrorist organization? You can't be serious. In fact, I'm going to assume you aren't for your own sake.

    Calls are made by CPS workers anonymously to invade a home? Are you serious? If people on this site want to take me to task for what I've written, is anyone going to stand up and slap this nonsense down?

    This one is ice cold, "I've said before there are worse things than sexual abuse. Adults might not understand but the kids do".

    I mean . . . seriously? You cannot be serious. Is anyone going to support me on this?

    Anonymous said...

    Anon 1:28:

    I don't have kids. I am put in charge of a large group on the weekends to supervise, but that isn't the issue.

    You're lack of perspective is impressive. My compassion is ample . . . I spend money on kids that aren't mine when I have college debt to pay, I volunteer my time with children because I an inkling of impossibly difficult it is to be a child that's been abused.

    CPS workers have a job to do. If they think it means observing a child rather than comforting it . . . then, I'm not sure why this is such an enormous "issue". I know I'm in the minority, but I trust case workers when I don't have any additional information.

    Headmistress, zookeeper said...

    "I don't have kids."

    You're right, Jeff. You don't know anything. Every statement you have made convinces me that CPS is worse than I thought. You seriously have NO clue about the trauma and agony you and your kind put kids through every day.
    You are abusers, and it makes me sick.

    My dad, by the way, was a supervising social worker for the state of California for fifteen years. He says he never met a social worker with a lick of common sense or the slightest idea of the bond between parent and child.

    Headmistress, zookeeper said...

    "How about the time I stated that the majority of girls able to bear children were either pregnant or had been, I was completely ridiculed on this site, then that number turned out to be officially 58%?"

    Well how about that time? The 'official' numbers include adult women, including a 22 year old who just gave freaking birth and your kind and compassionate organization put her to bed on a mattress on the FLOOR and you blow it off. You are and your stupid friends are criminally negligent and vile.

    You have NO idea what pain you are putting that post-partum mother through. NONE. This is not in her best interests or those of her baby. She is still bledding so much she needs to have a barrier mat beneath her, she is pain, she is having after-birth pangs that increase the more kids you hae so that by the time her third child is born they are worse than actual labor and you think it's just fine that she sleeps on a mat on the floor because it's standard procedure and happens all the time.

    You don't know it, but what you accept as 'standard procedure it's all just fine because it happens all the time' is revealing something deeply ugly about you, your soul, and your agency.

    Anybody who is comfortable with this harsh, medically injurious, and utterly insensitive treatment of a post-partem woman and 400 children is somebody who has had his ability to judge good and evil seared over, burned to an unrecognizable crisp, and the money you spend is just to make you feel better about it. It doesn't prove a thing.

    Anonymous said...

    Allright, I finished reading the MH papers. This might only be to Doran, but here goes since you asked me directly:

    1.) Since you will probably ignore most of what I write, I'll go ahead and write something damaging about CPS right off. The administration side of this was extremely poor . . . the word used routinely on site by CPS workers themselves was "clusterf*ck". These letters point to a lot of that, and I would agree with it. There were definately too many chefs in the kitchen, and the result was poor chain of command and workers that didn't always know what they needed to be doing. Many comments point this out, from the frustrated CPS workers, to the snapping at mothers and children, etc. I have no doubt that some mistakes were made.

    Now for the part you get to attack:
    1.) The MH pros were widely ridiculed by CPS workers because they got immediately manipulated by women on sight into "requestors". This point is made several different times about how the MH people started to ask for permission from the CPS people. The MH people did little but observe, watch, and talk. They didn't do anything; they didn't get fired because they were too compassionate, they were told to go home because they were costing the state money and weren't doing anything.

    2.) Like several other times I'm made this comment, these letters lack perspective. Is it really a big deal that a mother was denied rosemary thistle to help the quality of her breastmilk? No, but the letters continually bring up small points like this as evidence at how little the CPS workers cared for the children.

    3.) Nowhere in these letters do the MH workers point out the incredible deception routinely used by the women/children. The write of the "continual lies" CPS uses, without providing any evidence. Did CPS workers lie? I'm sure they did. Was it constant? I would think not.

    4.) One letter compares this situation to Nazi Germany. Such a comment renders the rest of the letter useless . . . it's like taking advice from someone that says clean water is bad for you.

    5.) The "flashlight" in the fact portion deserves special mention, because it was on purpose . . . and the MH people failed to write why. During the night, mothers would change places to "swap" children, then tell interviewers the next day that this new set of kids were their own. So, yes, mothers were awakened to check and see if the same mother was there as had been there a few hours previously.

    Headmistress, zookeeper said...

    You do realize that a classic tactic of abusers is to claim that their victims are manipulative, right?

    In you and your CPS buddies I think we have a classic, ongoing, Stanford Prison experiment.

    Only innocent families are the guinea pigs.

    Headmistress, zookeeper said...

    What Lowry basically said is that it's not any better to be removed from the frying pan if all that's going to happen is you get thrown in the fire.

    And no, you don't really know what it's like to have cancer nor is your perspective very deep or your understanding clear unless you've had it.
    And you don't know understand the bond between parent and child if you've never been one.

    I don't do anything? While you're comfortably donating money and volunteering your time, I've adopted an older sibling group of two, including one with multiple disabilities. She's now 21 years old, still in diapers, and can't talk.

    But yeah, I'm not doing anything.

    What you don't get, and don't want to get, is that it your dismissive words that demonstrate your lack of compassion and understanding. You're busy seeing yourself as some sort of hero and you resent it when people point out that your brand of heroism is destructive, patronizing, and insensitive.

    These kids have been traumatized by the actions CPS takes and continues to take, and you blow it off as stuff that 'happens all the time' and 'standard procedure' so that makes it okay.

    No, Jeff, it does not make it okay, it makes it WORSE.

    You talk about it like a frustrating bureaucratic snafu that CPS let a 2 year old spend 24 hours untended in a stroller until she became so dehydrated she had to be hospitalized, or that a 4 year old boy was so terrorized by CPS's actions that he hid and was not discovered until the next day. You demonstrate with every word that you have no clue what the cost is in damaged, traumatized lives.

    Anonymous said...

    I bow to Zookeeper. If I can't write without getting pissed off, I just won't write.

    You're right Zookeeper, I'm wrong. Congrats again.

    Your defense of Lowry has told me all I need to know. I'm sure you guys won't miss me.

    Headmistress, zookeeper said...

    Sigh. Too many errors to count, but for clarity's sake, that last paragraph should begin: You talk as though it is *merely* a frustrating bureaucratic snafu....

    Anonymous said...

    After watching this documentary I agree "Texas" treatment comes out on top just watch it !!!!



    Headmistress, zookeeper said...

    Don't be more of an idiot than you can help, Jeff. I didn't defend Lowry. I said that he's trying to tell you that out of the frying pan into the fire isn't a solution.

    You think it is.

    What I would like to see is CPS NOT be the 'fire,' but an actual improvement. Right now, it's not.

    Anonymous said...

    "Aren't there any actual abuse cases in Texas to worry about?"

    It's religious persecution, plain and simple.

    "The Austin Judge is also not elected by a bunch of Baptists looking for converts!"



    A Secularist Not Associated with the FLDS in Any Way (Heck, I Oppose Their 'Theology'),


    P.S. Jeff, you disgust me.

    P.P.S. I wrote that sentence after reading your first comment. After reading the totality of this thread, I'm left shell shocked at your lack of character and your lying behaviour. Disgust only begins to describe my feelings for you. As others have pointed out, if CPS is anything like you, and they seem to be, it's not surprising this whole evil mess is happening the way it is.

    Anonymous said...

    "I'm sure you guys won't miss me."

    Truer words were never spoken.

    Anonymous said...

    Curiouser and curiouser:

    From Brooke Adams blog on the Salt Lake Tribune:

    Tuesday, May 13, 2008
    Elissa Wall: Giving credit
    I have just picked up a copy of Elissa Wall's new book, ''Stolen Innocence,'' which is out today.

    I am probably like you: I skimmed the photographs first. And then I looked at the acknowledgments. She thanks her parents, siblings, many friends and, of course, Roger Hoole, her attorney.

    And then I noticed this: ''To Sheriff David Doran of Schleicher County for his untiring efforts to understand the FLDS people. To Capt. Barry Caver, Sgt. L. Brooks Long, and all the Texas Rangers for taking time to listen and learn about the FLDS.''

    Brooks Long is the ranger who wrote the warrants used in the April 3 raid on the YFZ Ranch. Long was the one who described seeing beds in the temple at the ranch, one of which appeared to have disturbed linens and to have a ''strand of hair believed to have come from the head of a female.''

    Anonymous said...

    And now CPS admits the mother who gave birth April 29 is not a minor:

    From the San Angelo Times:

    But they're still seeking custody of her newborn.

    Anonymous said...

    FYI - Utah's AG is a complete douche. The unwritten story right now is that an estimated 500 males have fled the YFZ ranch for fear of prosecution . . . they are headed all to Utah.

    I'll play.

    Texas isn't competent enough to figure out how to arrest and prosecute 500 child molesters and you are calling the Utah folks douches? At least they have prosecuted some folks. Texas has nothing.

    kbp said...

    The FLDS member gave birth the boy on April 29 in San Marcos.

    Different mother than the one that gave birth yesterday.

    Didn't see what changed CPS's mind in the report.

    kbp said...

    I'm sensing that if there is a source for inside information, that source is stuck on the 'wasn't me, they did it, I'm the good guy' defense.

    Hear it all the time when the "blue wall of silence" goes up.

    Only speculation here.

    Anonymous said...

    X APD OFFICER that I'm sure has much dirt on Abilene Officials for him to be touched cant wait to this ending.....


    House of Yahweh under increased scrutiny

    CLYDE (AP) - Behind guarded, ornate gates at the end of a rural road, a self-proclaimed prophet warns his followers about the end of time -- and rails against a dangerous and unclean world outside their West Texas compound in Clyde. But this isn't the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints' ranch, which authorities raided last month in Eldorado after receiving reports that underage girls were being forced to marry much older men. This is the House of Yahweh: a different, even darker sect that the state has been investigating for years. Authorities in February charged the group's 73-year-old leader with performing polygamous weddings and forcing about 40 children -- some as young as 11 -- to work jobs at his 44-acre compound. If convicted on the most serious charges, Yisrayl Hawkins faces up to 20 years in prison. Another sect leader goes to court this summer on charges of sexually abusing a teenager, bigamy and welfare fraud. Although members deny they practice polygamy, former members say Yisrayl Hawkins has at least two dozen wives -- and state records show he fathered two babies last year with women ages 19 and 22. Yisrayl Hawkins, who has pleaded not guilty in his criminal case, told The Associated Press that he and his church are misunderstood and persecuted because of their religious beliefs

    kbp said...

    Well, I browsed through all the letters from the workers and determined some might want to be hesitant in accepting the opinions of ELEVEN that were there as the gospel on the matter, some could possibly even classify all of them as co-conspirators looking to insinuate the CPS is a problem and the custody as a bigger problem.

    But, they should feel more assured that what was reported could have come from trustworthy professionals when they hear that one who knows those workers and understands the needs of those in custody.

    "Chairman John Kight said he wants state legislators and the governor to hear the employees' stories. "You have damaged these children for their lives," he said. "This is an agency that looks like it's gone out of control.""

    or, thats TWELVE CO-CONSPIRATORS risking their careers to voice their concerns.

    "It's early in the GAME..."
    Allison Palmer, 1st ADA


    Anonymous said...

    Anon 3:53, can you provide more info or links on this Yahweh, ex APD officer stuff?

    Anonymous said...

    Jeff wrote:

    " ...the word used routinely on site by CPS workers themselves was 'clusterf*ck'."

    Your CPS buddies talk like this "routinely", do they? And "on site" to boot? That pretty much tells me all I need to know about them.

    The use of obscene, pornographic speech in the presence of children is itself child abuse, and is even more reprehensible in the presence of children yet lacking the pornographic imaginations they are soon to acquire in Texas foster care.

    Anonymous said...

    " ...the word used routinely on site by CPS workers themselves was 'clusterf*ck'."

    Undoubtedly these CPS workers have some knowledge of what the term means. The real thing is legal, too - but at least it's not polygamy!

    TxBluesMan said...

    I just read the CPS response to the Amended Petition for Mandamus, and found that a number of the arguments made by the state were the same ones that I had pointed out in an earlier post.

    Specifically, in both In re Mata and Cochran, the relators (FLDS) mis-stated the relevant facts of each case, and neither case was on point.

    Based on the evidence of abuse that was entered into the record, and the fact that the FLDS witnesses corroborated that abuse, there appears to be reasonable grounds to turn the children over to the custody of CPS.

    I don't believe that the 3rd Court of Appeals will issue a writ of mandamus.

    The next hearings will focus on the identity of who are the biological parents, and what they will need to do to regain their children.

    kbp said...

    It appears you need to read TRLA's Reply.

    Without looking back over my notes, I recall finding it rather interesting the way CPS tried to re-write the objections, to make them look as if they were for something different than they actually were.

    I did notice their argument was similar to your's, but then I am uncertain whether to tip my hat to you or put you within the group with the same mindset that wants to burn the village!


    Skipping past your thoughts are on the cases cited, the basic issue I saw was CPS has it's entire case based on that ranch being a single household, and I recall ZERO cited to support that theory.

    Anonymous said...

    The woman who just gave birth is sleeping on a mattress on the floor in a small, dark, dirty room. CPS calls it "appropriate and comfortable."


    kbp said...

    For any that wish to post links:

    This is the basic TAG that will do it.

    < A href="LINK" >TITLE< /A >

    Copy and paste it to save.

    Remove any spaces on either sides of these symbols: < or >

    Enter the web address replacing the LINK.

    Enter any message you wish, spaces allowed, replacing the TITLE.

    That will enter links on comments just like this one here: HTML Tags & Codes

    Anonymous said...

    FLDS Mother Who Just Gave Birth Speaks to TV Station

    Thanks, KBP, for the very informative instructions.

    kbp said...

    Thanks for the link Anon!

    Now, when you post a comment, hit the Name/URL indicator, under the "Choose an identity" line, and enter some sort of name so we'll know it's your posts every time.

    If you want Italics or Bold, put the WORDS between, without any spaces:
    < i >WORDS< /i >
    < b >WORDS< /b >

    From that link
    At his son's birth, Dan Jessop was served papers, which said "the newborn child of a child is in the state's custody."

    Louisa Jessop, however, said she is not a child, and even CPS agents have said they finally believe the age she has given them all along.

    "They decided that I am 22 years old, and they said I could leave, but they would keep my baby," she said. "I couldn't leave my baby."

    Anonymous said...

    How politically expedient and compassionate of Mr. Shurtleff. He contributed to the situation in Texas by feeding into the local frenzy in Eldorado. In 2005, he testified before a Texas House Committee to change bigamy, marriage and sexual offender laws - specifically targeting the FLDS, and solely for that purpose.

    Funny how attitudes change.

    Anonymous said...


    Abilene policeman for nine years


    kbp said...

    Not to debate you Jeff, but something you said has been stuck in my mind since I read it, just one single word I couldn't figure out why it bothered me so much.

    The [Hill Country] MH pros were widely ridiculed by CPS workers because they got immediately MANIPULATED by women on sight into "requestors". This point is made several different times about how the MH people started to ask for permission from the CPS people. The MH people did little but observe, watch, and talk. They didn't do anything; they didn't get fired because they were too compassionate, they were told to go home because they were costing the state money and weren't doing anything."

    You tell us the "MH People" were there to help. "...ask for permission! Help those in custody so it's a bad thing.

    As I was catching up on TxWordPounder's blog it hit me like a brick, like a fool YOU hit square between the eyes.

    - To influence or manage shrewdly or deviously;
    - To tamper with or falsify for personal gain

    Women subjected to "authoritarian husbands", so they learned to MANIPULATE;

    Members of a church led by "authoritarian leaders", again, so they learned to MANIPULATE;

    Uneducated women that acquired the skills needed to MANIPULATE;

    Sheltered souls, not at all familiar with that "outside world", who struggled to MANIPULATE...

    Any secret source you have was either wrong when they took these poor submissive subjects away from those terrible "authoritarian leaders", wrong when they told you these women MANIPULATED, or wrong always.

    You're either just looking to argue, here to lie for the allegedly MANIPULATED, or one of the 'victims' within the group you claim is saying that their inferior helpers were MANIPULATED.

    Which ever it is does not matter, as any of the three would make you unworthy of any more responses to the type of inaccuracies you post.

    Anonymous said...

    Texas Authorities Investigate More Polygamy Charges at Another Sect


    Gritsforbreakfast said...

    I deleted one of Jeff's overnight comments that included overtly obscene name calling. Jeff, based on the comment I deleted and one or two others here you're a disgrace to your profession and, really, the human race. If that's how you intend to speak to others (like a coward, anonymously cussing a woman you've never met), go somewhere else - maybe get back to work and kick some kids around or something, but most of your comments here over the past weeks have been errors, lies or obfuscations that contributed nothing but hostility and falsehood to these strings. And while you're at it, cite your sources or stop putting out false information. Period. I can't say it more bluntly. Behave like an adult or leave.

    Frankly that goes for everybody. I appreciate that folks are passionate about this, but if people want to engage in name calling, etc., start your own blog. I think if you do, what you'll discover is that not many people show up to read that kind of drivel.

    Send complaints about Grits' comment policy to shenson@austin.rr.com. Off topic complaints about comment policy left here will be deleted. I enjoy a healthy debate, but this blog is not a democracy! Thanks.

    Anonymous said...

    Texas case is unraveling big time:
    (1) They admit introducing false testimony which they knew at the time of production were likely to be false (Texas driver's licenses were shown). What does that mean? It means the testimony given at court by the CPS witnesses should be excluded as they perjured themselves, with that done the court should go back and look at the evidence: O no! the court needs to revise that order immediately to comply with the allowable facts, but as you know courts don't like to do their work over especially if they working as hard as they could to avoid giving as much due process as is required by both federal and state constitutions.
    (2) the original order violated federal law specifically the Proxmire act (you can't tell me removing adults is allowed under child protective laws especially when the court knew it had a problem with ages being determined by unreliable methods that makes whole act have only one intent to destroy the religious group there)- the taking of adults under child protective laws which didn't apply to them, makes the act kidnapping, also a federal crime. Since courts aren't allowed to produce order that violate law: What are those orders considered? In bankrupcy court this happens frequently (courts aren't always told they been stayed by a bankruptcy proceeding) and what happens there is that those orders are "void ab inito" (void from the beginning). So I believe the district courts order is void ab inito, which exposes the CPS agents, Texas Rangers, DPS and any other person who has been enforcing that order to federal criminal prosecution. I don't think anyone will prosecute the police officers (but some federal prosecutors may indite just to testimony) but the CPS agents know they lied and know the order was obtained with false information. All of them could be sued in federal court and found liable.
    (3) it appears the court carried out kangaroo court procedures, the families didn't all live in one building and I think even when they shared buildings they had separating locking doors making it more like dormitories or apartments. Also the YFZ people don't own the ranch, the UEP trust does and it is controlled by a court appointed fiduciary and board which currently include no FLDS leaders (actually I think its no current FLDS completely, but I can't verify that). So there should have been separate warrants for each building and separate living quarters. And separate hearings for each family living in such separate quarters. Actually an argument could be made that their should be a separate hear for each child, but that's not standard practice in any US court (not just Texas). Based on the prior hearing and the basic evidence as to family quarters, the appeals court should mandate that the lower court rehold those hearing properly. But of course that court is likely to join such hearings to the permanency hearings and then only do the permanency part, saying that the evidence was already there (not really doing a de novo review).

    I doubt there's an state appeals court in Texas with enough gumption to fix this case properly. If I were a lawyer, I'd be thinking about using the federal courts: starting with the US DOJ ADA office in Lubbock and the FBI for the criminal prosecutions and when they don't move on it (because the current administration is so Texas based) get a special prosecutor appointed. Also start filing on those perjurous statements and other illegal acts. I don't think a state agency can allow those from its employees.

    KMDuff said...

    The fact that the burden of proof is on the parents to show they are taking care of their kids, that they are legal age to have kids while their birth records are disputed, that they are monogamous (in some cases), while CPS can refute anything they say by saying "They're lying", and the judge believes CPS is crazy. Why does CPS have so much power?

    The fact that CPS can lie/distort facts in the trials to hold the kids and when this comes out the ruling still stands is ludicrous. (IE how many teenagers are pregnant)

    And why have they essentially stopped coverage here in Dallas?

    Anonymous said...

    Read Abilene Officials crock of ____and excuses on sect infant's murder.


    Questions linger in 2006 infant death
    Independent pathologists say son of sect members was murdered

    Almost a year ago, baby Rephayah Isaac Lindsay died. Exactly when and where the 1-month-old infant perished remains unclear, although his father gave Abilene police his version of those particulars.The ambiguity surrounding Rephayah's death has hampered police investigations. Law enforcement officers in two counties - Callahan and Taylor - acknowledged concerns about jurisdiction. And his parents, the two people who are believed to have been with Rephayah at the time of his death, weren't charged with any crime. Rephayah was the couple's only child. No one has been held responsible for Rephayah's death despite the fact that two pathologists - independent from the case - reviewed the medical examiner's report and concluded the child was murdered. According to police, Rephayah's parents said the boy wasn't feeling well, so they decided to take him for a car ride in hopes of making him feel better. While riding in the car - somewhere in Callahan County, Abilene police believe - Rephayah stopped breathing. Little Rephayah was then buried in a grave at an undisclosed site in Callahan County, according to Abilene police. Rephayah's parents have never been identified by police. However, Shaun Lindsay, who was 31 at the time, was identified as the boy's father, according to a court-ordered autopsy requested by Taylor County Justice of the Peace Bryan Smith. The boy's mother was 24 at the time of Rephayah's death. Rephayah's parents didn't report his death or burial.
    The Child Protective Services hotline received an anonymous call July 10 by someone reporting that a child died July 7 and was buried somewhere. Abilene police began investigating the death after the department was notified by CPS. Lindsay told police his son died July 7 and cited his family's religious beliefs for why the boy's death and burial weren't reported. It is believed that the family belonged to the House of Yahweh - a religious group that many refer to as a cult. The group's headquarters is in Abilene. A compound, where many members live, is located in Callahan County.
    According to court documents, the couple lived on property owned by Yisrayl Hawkins, the House of Yahweh founder and leader.
    Abilene investigators talked to Lindsay for several hours before they were able to convince him to bring the baby's body to the police station. The father was allowed to return to the unmarked burial site unescorted - an occurrence Abilene police now say was highly unusual, but the only way possible to get evidence. Police said they do not know the exact location where the boy was buried. When Lindsay returned with the body, it was wrapped in a yellow and white blanket. Rephayah's body was sent to the Tarrant County Medical Examiner's office for an autopsy, which was performed by Dr. Marc Krouse, the deputy chief medical examiner. According to the autopsy, at the time of examination, the body was wrapped in two blankets and enclosed in a plastic bag. Rephayah was wearing only a knit cap, covering his short straight dark brown hair. A preliminary autopsy indicated the boy died of protein malnourishment and of ''terminal'' asphyxiation, which does not mean death was caused by another human.
    Later, the medical examiner's Web site described the death as being caused by ''traumatic'' asphyxiation, or sudden or severe compression of the chest or upper abdomen that prevents breathing. ''Traumatic'' could mean that the child was purposely suffocated.
    ''If we had known 'traumatic' was the description, we might have approached the investigation differently,'' said Taylor County District Attorney James Eidson.
    An online public access database of the files from the medical examiner's office lists the cause of death as ''traumatic'' asphyxiation, rather than ''terminal'' asphyxiation.
    ''If we had known that at the time we were investigating, it might have made a difference in how the case was handled,'' Eidson said.
    ''Traumatic'' asphyxiation implies the death was caused by an outside force while ''terminal'' asphyxiation does not.
    At 4.6 pounds, Rephayah's body was malnourished with almost no fat under the skin and poorly developed muscle, according to the report. His stomach was empty and it was noted that he had ''virtually no contents'' within any part of the bowel.
    Board certified forensic pathologist Dr. Linda E. Norton, who is based in Dallas and practices privately, said after reviewing the autopsy report that Rephayah's death ''clearly is a homicide. ''When you starve a child to this degree, I don't see how you can't call this a homicide,'' she said. She also said there is evidence, based on the autopsy report, that Rephayah was suffocated, ''actually smothered to death.'' A local medical pathologist who asked not to be identified said basically the same thing. Neither pathologist is involved with the case. Their independent opinions were sought by the Reporter-News because of their expertise. Abilene police declined to file criminal charges against Rephayah's parents after Krouse, who performed the autopsy, told investigators the baby's death was either accidental or of natural causes. APD Assistant Chief Ken Merchant said the medical examiner's report ''carries a lot of weight'' in police's decision to file charges or not. Police said the boy's parents told them taking their child to a doctor is against their religious beliefs. ''They might have been doing what they thought was right, what the midwives had told them to do with the sick child,'' Eidson said. Eidson said if he were prosecuting the case, he would have a hard time proving the couple's intent was homicide. ''Intent is important,'' Eidson said. Besides the issue of determining whether Rephayah's death was accidental or murder, law enforcement agencies have been faced with the challenge of determining jurisdiction.
    Abilene police had been the sole agency investigating Rephayah's death, but then they determined the death occurred in Callahan County. Judge Smith said he turned the case over to Justice of the Peace Roy Chapman, whose office is in Callahan County. Abilene police closed their investigation, but not without offering investigative help to Callahan County officials, according to APD Chief Melvin Martin. Chapman, however, doesn't remember the offer. ''I just feel that it was thrown at us,'' Chapman said. ''There was never an investigation in Callahan County.''

    Callahan County Sheriff Eddie Curtis said his office hasn't and isn't investigating the death.

    With agencies in both counties stalemated, the investigation of Rephayah's death should be carried forward to the Texas Attorney General or the U.S. Attorney General, according to an investigator who works for Norton, the Dallas forensic pathologist who has a private practice.
    ''The thing to do in a case like this is to bring in a special prosecutor,'' Norton said.
    Ken Ellsworth contributed to this article. Headline and copy editor: Beverly Butman; Editor: Loretta Fulton

    © 2007 Abilene Reporter-News

    Headmistress, zookeeper said...

    Grits, I'd like to apologize for my part in goading Jeff by my own emotional outburst. The only reason he swore and I didn't is because I never do, not because I was less upset.

    As a previous anonymous commenter pointed out, women will 'get' just exactly how horrendously cruel CPS is being by putting a postpartum woman to bed on the floor in a way that men won't- especially a man who has never seen his beloved in postpartum circumstances.

    I can't imagine what it must be like to try to nurse the baby, get up and down to use the bathroom, shower, eat, and keep myself and my sleeping linens clean while still dealing with the typical pains and mess of birth within the first few weeks, let alone the first few hours. Or rather, I can imagine it all too well, thinking about just how much pain I was in during the days following the births of our five biological children.

    It's not okay that this 'happens all the time.' That makes it worse, much worse, and shows the calloused over ability to empathize is even worse than I realized.

    But I should have controlled my passionate outburst, and certainly your blog was not the place for that anyway.

    kbp said...

    Anon 10:31
    "...They admit introducing false testimony which they knew at the time of production were likely to be false (Texas driver's licenses were shown)."

    False testimony? Could you be more specific?

    "Also the YFZ people don't own the ranch, the UEP trust does...."

    Is that fact?


    Jeff's posts were clearly put up to invite the reactions they received.

    "It's early in the GAME..."
    Allison Palmer, 1st ADA

    kbp said...

    Those who think the state and the Children's Protective Services erred in removing children from their loving FLDS families should take a serious look at this organization with an open mind.

    Anonymous said...

    kpb asked:

    "Also the YFZ people don't own the ranch, the UEP trust does...."

    Is that [a] fact?

    More to the point, with producing wells next door:

    Who owns the mineral rights?

    SB said...

    This one is ice cold, "I've said before there are worse things than sexual abuse. Adults might not understand but the kids do".

    I mean . . . seriously? You cannot be serious. Is anyone going to support me on this?"

    Jeff, I stand behind this 100%. Allegations against the parents pales in comparison to what CPS has done to these children. This is certainly not an isolated case but it is definitely the most visible. If all of this is being done to help these kids maybe we should help them a lot less.
    You appear to be an educated man without a lick of common sense. There is a disconnect somewhere.

    Anonymous said...

    Ten Things that happen to kids which are worse than sexual abuse:

    1. Being drowned to death by their mother.

    2. Suffering a skull fracture by being beaten.

    3. Suffering brain damage by being shaken.

    4. Suffering broken ribs, broken legs, and broken arms by being beaten.

    5. Gunshot wounds.

    6. Being kidnapped by strangers, and placed in the custody of strangers.

    7. Being separated for what seems like forever from brothers and sisters, fathers and mothers.

    8. Being dropped out of high windows.

    9. Being savagely chewed on by dogs.

    10. Being scalded.

    I've either seen all these things in my practice,or have seen them reported.

    kbp said...

    11. Grounded from the X-Box AND Play Station for a week.

    Threw that in for humor on a slow day, but some kids might agree with it.

    TxBluesMan said...

    Anon 10:31,

    Exactly where did the witnesses or the State admit to perjured or otherwise false testimony?

    As far as a violation of the federal Genocide statute, you’re clearly dreaming, nor do I believe that any court in the land will entertain a finding that the orders are void ab initio on that basis.

    Anonymous said...

    Whoever (if I remember correctly the San Angelo paper said it was Angie from CPS, but other CPS personnel may have lied in their written testimony) testified that those adults were minors perjured themselves (either when they said they could judge ages or when they claimed those women were all minors).

    Worse the district attorney knew it, too, as driver's licenses are just too easy to verify. They knowingly entered that false testimony when all they had to do was check driver's licenses out.

    Even worse the court under the best evidence rule should have had those women come forward and state their date of birth under oath (that's better evidence than eyeballing). I'll bet that after seeing all of them were pregnant a good judge would have been suspicious and wanted to question all the other with-child(ren) minors.

    She could have reduced the court's work considerably right there! How dense is this judge? I knew they were lying when I read that (but I didn't realize what they were really trying to do: get all the babies by imprisoning their adult mothers).

    As for who owns the YFZ ranch the UEP trustee believes it was built from trust assets see Subpoenas. It may be currently held by a LLC or other entity that should belong to the UEP trust. My guess is that the UEP trustee wants a payment in the amount of at least a couple million dollars from the YFZ ranch. Of course if he takes over the LLC/ranch, he'll have to collect from the residents on a monthly basis.

    TxBluesMan said...

    Anon 10:43,

    First, I would doubt that the record would support either a charge of perjury or aggravated perjury, as you will have to prove that Voss knew that the testimony she was providing was false and that she intended to deceive the court. Second, without actually looking at the hearing transcript, but by going on published reports, it appears that she was very careful on how she phrased her answers. For example, the Deseret News reported that she testified that there were more than 20 girls who had been identified that had either conceived or given birth at age 16. This is supported by other evidence, such as the search warrant affidavit, where Lee Roy Jessop’s wife gave a date of birth that indicated that her first child was conceived at age 15 or 16.

    Second, again from published reports and the published Property Transfer, there is evidence that a two birth certificates were found showing one individual, one father, but two different mothers. Once it was established that there were possible forged documents, the court clearly had the right to discount all presented documents and require DNA.

    Finally, under Texas law, the subpoenas you mention from a Utah Court will be quashed. See In re Westwood Affiliates, 2007 Tex. App. LEXIS 1040 (Tex. App. Houston 2007) denying a civil litigant’s demand for the production of documentary evidence and photos being held by law enforcement authorities during a criminal investigation, even though no charges had yet been filed, and quoting Hobson v. Moore, 734 S.W.2d 340 (Tex. 1987) which had held that there is a law enforcement privilege to be free from civil litigation in regards to a criminal investigation. There is no way that Texas will send the evidence it needs for a criminal investigation to Utah.

    Headmistress, zookeeper said...

    there is evidence that a two birth certificates were found showing one individual, one father, but two different mothers.

    I'm curious about this one. I'd like to see it. I've noticed that the FLDS share many of the same names, first and last. So how are they determining this is one individual, and not two children fathered by the same man, different mothers, or fathered by two men with the same name?

    Gritsforbreakfast said...

    What criminal investigation, Bluesman? You mean the national man-hunt for Dale Barlow?

    I wish they'd hurry up and solve this who-dunnit so they can turn their resources to finding OJ's wife's real killer. ;)

    TxBluesMan said...


    It could be just like you opine, but until they have some sort of further evidence, it would be within the judge's discretion not to accept the documents.


    Are you being disingenuous? ;)

    I can never tell.... lol

    Gritsforbreakfast said...

    I'm just waiting to hear what the crime is, bluesy. No prosecutor has alleged one.

    However, I understand the search for Nicole's real killer has been stalled with OJ's recent legal troubles. So when the Rangers are finished searching for Sarah's molester, perhaps they can turn their attention to finding that mysterious figure.

    Anonymous said...

    Anyone else sense political and financial motivation here? Just out of curiosity. . . {The DA(s) office who provides the legal support for CPS, files each case on every family, provides the staff of ADAs to monitor each case, attend all the planning meetings, file all the mounds and mounds of paperwork etc..} Is the DA a Republican or Democrat? How is the DA's office able to handle all of these cases, are they now getting extra funding for staff? How are the Guardians at Lietums being appointed for the children and paid? The Judge on the cases. . . what is the relationship between the DAs office and the Judge? What ties does the Judge have to the apoointed lawyers for the children? Moreover, what relationship does the DA or Judge have with CPS in the area, are they on the Boards of Directors for the Childrens Advocacy Center (CPS). Just comparing Texas counties, AN EXAMPLE...COLLIN COUNTY TEXAS. The DA is on the Board of Directors for The Childrens Advocacy Center better known as CPS, the DA's son is a Judge in Collin County family courts, his daughter in law is a Guardian at Lietum appointed to the Children, the Judge in the 417th who is over most all CPS cases employs the DAs Chief Investigators step daughter as her clerk of court, and this Judge is also married to another Judge in the same court house, her husband is in the DA's Criminal court division. While Collin County tends to sit under the radar thus far, it make one stop and wonder. . . why does CPS "shoot now ask questions later?" Who all is profiting from the scars that will be permanantly be branded on these families and children? More importantly, who monitors the "hush hush" relationships. . . COLLIN COUNTY has it down to an artform.