Tuesday, May 13, 2008

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history" - Hegel

Salt Lake Tribune reporter/blogger Brooke Adams' coverage of the Great Eldorado Polygamist Roundup continues to outclass all of the Texas media by a country mile. Yesterday she published this wonderful historic image on her blog at the paper, The Plural Life, along with links to various present-day cartoonists' portrayals of the Texas raid. This cartoon was published in the Salt Lake Tribune toward the end of the Short Creek saga in 1953:

Ironically, a commenter pointed out, the state legislator who sponsored new statutes in 2005 specifically targeting FLDS, Rep. Harvey Hildebran, R-Kerrville, recently told the press "I don't think this will be another Short Creek." But he's already wrong. You could change the characters above to Governor Rick Perry and the Texas 3rd Court of Appeals, and the cartoon would be utterly current.


Headmistress, zookeeper said...

No, he's right. It's not Short Creek. During the 2.5 years the government kept the children of Short Creek, they also kept most of their mothers with them.

Anonymous said...

After all that has happened under HIS administration and he has the nerve to run again....Oh my God!!!!

kbp said...

It's rather worrisome, when you consider the fact all Hildebran has bragged on relating to this case, he did so to display his pride for being the big instigator here.

I do not approve of crimes, especially those involving victims, but in the grand scheme of things, the most that he can hope for is that crimes nobody was even aware of will be eliminated and those people that dress funny will not be in his backyard any more.

rl said...

CPS says sect mother who gave birth April 29 not a minor

exas Child Protective Services said today at a custody hearing for a child born to one of the YFZ Ranch children that the agency no longer believes the mother is a minor.

The mother was initially one of 463 children removed from the ranch near Eldorado during a weeklong raid of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints compound by state authorities that began April 3.

CPS officials at the time believed the pregnant female to be a minor, and she was included in a massive custody action approved April 18 by 51st District Court Judge Barbara Walther in San Angelo.

Walther presided over today's hearing at the Tom Green County Courthouse.

The FLDS member gave birth the boy on April 29 in San Marcos.

Today's custody hearing was continued to Friday to allow attorneys to prepare. The mother will need a new attorney because the attorneys representing her also are representing other minors and were concerned about conflicts of interest.

When the hearing resumes, state officials said, they will continue to seek custody of the infant.

rl said...


sorry, failed to make that a proper link

Christoph said...

"Ironically, a commenter pointed out, the state legislator who sponsored new statutes in 2005 specifically targeting FLDS..."

Why is this not a bill of attainder or ex post facto law?

Anonymous said...

"Why is this not a bill of attainder or ex post facto law?"

The short answer: because violations prior to the law's enactment aren't targeted. If a so-called marriage was performed since the legal age for marriage, regardless of parental consent, and the husband had sex with his supposed "wife" outside a valid marriage, there could be a criminal violation, and the person/s responsible for arranging the marriage could be subject to criminal liability, too. The legislature hasn't declared particular conduct in the past a crime and declared persons guilty w/o trial (bill of attainder) or said persons guilty of the law before its enactment (ex post facto) should be prosecuted.

On the other hand, some atty will challenge the law on religious grounds b/c Hildebran has been so vocal about the intent of the bill that, if proven that the intent was to stop FLDS, there's an opening to make an argument that the bill violated the First Amendment's free exercise of religion clause. The gov't will then counter that the bill was aimed at all of the poulation, w/o regard to religious practice. Draw your own conclusions.

kbp said...

The FLDS member gave birth the boy on April 29 in San Marcos.

Different mother than the one that gave birth yesterday.

Didn't see what changed CPS's mind in the report.

Anonymous said...

Looks like the CPS is all powerful and does not have to answer for it's actions.

First she was underage now she isn't. They were wrong at first or they're wrong now, either way, they were wrong.

Before CPS cites evidence of abuse based upon lies made by others, they need to look at themselves.

kbp said...

"Because we removed that newborn
into our custody two weeks ago, we had to have an adversarial hearing," Texas Child Protective Services spokesman Patrick Crimmins said Tuesday. "We will put on our evidence and the judge will decide whether to keep the baby in custody."

When the hearing resumes, state officials said, they will continue to seek custody of the infant.

The San Angelo Standard Times
" reported that CPS would continue to seek custody of the newborn"

Freed at last, so she can evidently stay there with her baby in custody.

What are the odds of Walther ruling that baby that has never seen the ranch is in imminent danger of abuse?

"It's early in the GAME..."
Allison Palmer, 1st ADA


kbp said...

"disputed" minors

Boy! Terri Langford at the Chron doesn't like to write much if it looks like bad news for the CPS, good news for the FLDS parents, or Rod Parker has a message to convey.

"It's early in the GAME..."
Allison Palmer, 1st ADA

kbp said...

Mother to lose child!!
"A CPS worker has told [Lori Jessup] that after the infant, Joseph Steed Jessop Jr., turns one year old, which will be on May 15, 2008, he, too, will be taken away from her."

The good reports for CPS just keep comin'.

"It's early in the GAME..."
Allison Palmer, 1st ADA

kbp said...

Chairman says Texas CPS workers mistreated FLDS

extraction, "[W]e're just aghast at the methods they used to go out there and take the kids away from their mothers," Kight said. "We want him (Texas Gov. Rick Perry) to hear first hand what went on, ... how abusive CPS was and how they've trampled all over their rights.""

This article is long, much we already know, but definitely a good one to read.

"It's early in the GAME..."
Allison Palmer, 1st ADA

kbp said...

Three Fathers From Polygamist Compound File Suit in Bexar County

Late Tuesday afternoon San Antonio attorney Gerry Goldstein, who represents the fathers, filed a petition here in Bexar County against the State of Texas.
News 4 was told it was filed in Bexar County because the five children mentioned in the suit are staying at shelters in San Antonio

"It's early in the GAME..."
Allison Palmer, 1st ADA

The Local Crank said...

The adversarial system of Western common law can do more harm than good in Family Law settings; this is developing into a prime example. DFPS is hardening into an "us vs. them" mentality that I have seen in other cases. The mothers are treated as "the enemy," irrespective of whether or not they have even been accused of wrongdoing. Fort Concho was devolving into a re-enactment of the Dartmouth Prison Experiment. The ultimate problem is not that DFPS is an omnipotently powerful agency without restraint; rather that it is an underfunded overburdened and understaffed agency unable to retain qualified personnel. This is the inevitable result of the brutal fact that the State of Texas as an institution does not give a fat rat's ass about children.

Gritsforbreakfast said...

Just to clarify, Crankman, it's actually the Stanford Prison Experiment.

kbp said...

My blog search for "flds OR eldorado OR yfz", of those having been posted or updated since yesterday, turned up 111,731 hits, so the outrage on either side is not going away soon. Of all I read, it appears most are more upset at the conduct of the authorities involved than they are of the allegations floating around about the FLDS members conduct.

A few to share:
Anderson Cooper 360 on the letter to Dubya.

Lost Boys?
Questions where the "lost boys" of the YFZ went. Fishing for a crime?

Top 5 lies about the FLDS

Short Circuit News Wire
Looks a bit like psychological suppositions building up to produce THE evidence needed to CONCLUDE there have been crimes committed against all the children.

Geez, I'm telling you, do a blog post about anything related to the FLDS and Wham! Blog hits out the wazoo!

Day old baby!
"They came here and told me they were going to take my little baby away from me," Louisa Jessop said. This blog actually pasted an MSNBC news article from the Todays Show.

I tried to balance the links to have both sides here.

kbp said...

Reclassification of mother creates new complications in YFZ Ranch case

"[Pamela Jeffs] Jessop had told caseworkers in an interview on April 6 at the YFZ Ranch that she was 18, according to documents seeking custody of her son filed in state district court in Tom Green County after his birth."

If one is a liar, shouldn't they ALL be classified as liars?

"Based on the birthdates she provided to CPS investigators, she was 15 at the time she and her husband, Jackson Jessop, conceived the older boy."

With her husband, Jackson, being 22 YO now, he was near 19 YO when the baby was conceived (depending on his exact birthday...). Not sure if that happened in Texas or not, but if it did, it could be a problem.

""If we possess credible evidence that other minors in question are over 18," then CPS will release them, as well, said spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner, declining to discuss what specific evidence led CPS to reverse course in Jessop's case. "We are still in the midst of an investigation. We cannot just dismiss them without credible evidence.""

We've had trouble with the definition of "credible", as it applies to identification, since Walthers was so eager to go along with the idea ALL ID's may be forged!

On that day old baby, the article says; Walther on Tuesday afternoon granted CPS' request to take that boy, identified as Richard Daniel Jessop in court documents, into temporary custody and set an initial hearing in his case for May 23. The documents list the mother, identified as Louisa Bradshaw Jessop, as "15 or 16" and say she gave investigators conflicting birth dates when interviewed at the ranch."

That custody matter is puzzling at best. I guess Walthers can do this since the mother is still in custody as a minor. Sure makes the authorities look to corrupt to have not been able to determine her ID's were credible BEFORE she gave birth.

kbp said...

Just a thought here!

Rod Parker had claimed that he knew of 11, 12 or quite a few of the pregnant girls in "dispute" were acyually adualts.

We have one CPS admitted to and one claiming to be 22 YO most do not doubt now.

I do not emergency type action in the courts by any except maybe the 22 YO to be released.

I then wonder if just doing the minimum to seek having the ADULTS being held in custody released, so that it does not happen quickly, could be a strategy to show more injury in a federal complaint later.

Maybe letting the Walthers and her CPS crew play their hand more freely will result in them creating more problem$ to face later.

kbp said...

Sorry for that last post. Typing one handed while talking on the phone!

kbp said...

Those who think the state and the Children's Protective Services erred in removing children from their loving FLDS families should take a serious look at this organization with an open mind.

Anonymous said...


Finally a judge who actually uses the Consitution. I hope this helps all the mothers get back to their babies! The judge also ordered DAILY visitation! How wonderful for those young children! Now Texas is going after the married man because the oldest child was concieved at 15 although they were married consentually. This is dirty. Can't take the mom so let's take the dad.. I thought Texas was a family state. This legalism is destroying families. Many young moms concieve at 15 with much much older men and nothing is done--even during abortions. This is a sick presedent. MHMR said in Colonias 11 year olds were pregnant in great quanities by MUCH older men. This is a different situation. Preserve the family and lets help these children heal. The Common Room blog has a list of officials you should contact and beat down their doors with. Please post this information so your readers can also call/write these officials. After the MHMR affidavits, I thought this would reach the big news... what a shock they did not.. Shows who really is telling the full story..just another day with Carolyn Jessop.

Anonymous said...

The ACLU has begun making noises.


kbp said...

ACLU link
Similar to the TXACLU statement. Sort of a 'we're watching, but don't have anything to say yet' response. I guess they're waiting for more to happen.

Gritsforbreakfast said...

I think you can only interpret that, KBP, as ACLU officially declaring itself a "spectator."

I mean, holy mother of God, how much worse must it get before they involve themselves?! There are about ten different important civil liberties angles to this mess, any one of which should justify their involvement.

kbp said...

Today marks the 39th day since they had started hauling all those children off - April 6th.

Feel free to check.

"It's early in the GAME..."
Allison Palmer, ADA

Gritsforbreakfast said...

Ironically, April 6 is the anniversary of the date Joseph Smith founded the Mormon Church.

I can't imagine the locals in W. Texas knew enough about the religion to know the date's significance, but it's a dark omen, nonetheless.

diogenes said...

Considering all the planning that went into this operation, I'm inclined to believe that April 6th was specifically chosen because of it's significance as the day the Mormon church was originally founded.

The part they may not have known is that the April 6th founding date was not a random day. The church was founded on that day because modern revelation indicated that was the day Jesus Christ was born. I can't speak for certain for the FLDS, but I do know that this day continues to carry special significance among the LDS church.

Does this darken the omen, or just make it all the more sad?

Headmistress, zookeeper said...

The ultimate problem is not that DFPS is an omnipotently powerful agency without restraint; rather that it is an underfunded overburdened and understaffed agency unable to retain qualified personnel.

It just seems to me that being overly powerful without restraint has to be part of the problem, or there would be some redress. But it seems that there isn't any option for parents who don't want to lose their kids except rolling over, doing whatever CPS says, no matter how accurate CPS accusations are.